More on collateral order review of presidential immunity

The latest episode of Divided Argument with Will Baude and Dan Epps explores Trump. Baude praises Barrett's conception of presidential immunity  as an as-applied constitutional challenge to the law. So conceived, however, Baude questions Barrett's conclusion that denial of the defense is immediately reviewable. Immunities receive immediate review, as they protect the person from having to stand trial or stay in litigation for too long. Constitutional defenses--e.g., a separation-of-powers defense to the CFPB (Barrett cites Seila Law as an example) or a First Amendment defense to a flag-burning law--do not, as they protect the person from liability. I want to unpack what I wrote about this.

COD appealability should not turn on labeling something as "immunity" or as a "right not to stand trial." Barrett's point is that immunity is never a distinct concept; it is shorthand for the argument that a law does not apply to the defendant's conduct.* And it is not obvious what makes something a right not to stand trial as opposed to a defense to liability, beyond the label--every defense can be characterized as one or the other.  There is no obvious reason that double jeopardy and qualified immunity are immunities according a right not to stand trial while preclusion and the FTCA judgment bar are defenses to liability.

[*] Justice Alito has said the same about MLB's antitrust immunity--he describes it as a judicially interpreted exclusion of MLB from the scope of antitrust laws and the application of those laws to MLB's conduct

Justice Souter tried to wrangle this issue in two unanimous COD opinions--Will (FTCA judgment bar) and Digital Equipment (private covenant not to sue). Reviewability should turn on the systemic import of the interests sought to be vindicated by immediate review and that would be lost by "rigorous application of a final judgment requirement." Thus, "it is not mere avoidance of a trial, but avoidance of a trial that would imperil a substantial public interest, that counts when asking whether an order is 'effectively' unreviewable if review is to be left until later." This analysis considers the source of the asserted right (Constitution, statute, common law, contract) and who and what the right protects (individual or systemic interests). Unfortunately, Souter's approach has been lost in favor of simple labels.

Back to Barrett and presidential immunity. Her conception of a constitutional defense to a prosecution places presidential immunity on the same footing as the separation of powers and First Amendment defenses above. So why is the first immediately reviewable and the other two not? She never explains. Souter's considerations about underlying interests provide a way out. Although all derive from the Constitution, the latter two (and certainly the third) protect individual liberty interests; the first protects broad systemic interests of the presidency and the ability of the President to act within the constitutional system. That distinction may be wrong. Separation of powers in Seila Law serves structural interests of preserving the President's removal power; one could argue individual liberties serve structural interests of limiting government power. Maybe Barrett's position, taken seriously, explodes the COD or forcse the Court to make absurd distinctions to ensure COD remains a "small class of claims."

But Barrett's position about presidential immunity is not necessarily wrong or inconsistent with COD--if we accept Souter's position that COD turns on the underlying interests and policies at issue and begin the analysis there.