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Thursday, August 15, 2019

Law School Hiring Spreadsheet and Clearinghouse for Questions, 2019-2020

I. The Spreadsheet

In the spreadsheet, you can enter information regarding whether you have received

(a) a first round interview at a school (including the subject areas the school mentioned, if any, as being of particular interest, and whether the interview offer was accepted);

(b)  a callback from a law school and/or accepted it; or

(c) an offer from a law school and/or accepted it; feel free to also leave details about the offer, including teaching load, research leave, etc. A school listed as "offer accepted" may have made more than one offer and may still have some slots open.

Law professors may also choose to provide information that is relevant to the entry-level market.  

Anyone can edit the spreadsheet; I will not be editing it or otherwise monitoring it. It is available here:

II. The Comment Thread

In this comment thread to this post, you can ask questions about the law teaching market, and professors or others can weigh in.

Both questions and answers can be anonymous, but I will delete pure nastiness, irrelevance, and misinformation. If you see something that you know to be wrong, please feel free to let me know via email, sarah*dot*lawsky*at*law*dot*northwestern*dot*edu.

You may want to take a look at the many questions and answers in the threads from 2014-20152015-20162016-2017, 2017-2018, and 2018-2019. In general, there's quite a cache of materials relevant to the law job market under the archive categories Getting a Job on the Law Teaching Market and Entry Level Hiring Report.

Posted by Sarah Lawsky on August 15, 2019 at 09:00 AM in Getting a Job on the Law Teaching Market | Permalink

Comments

Practice-to-Prof, feel free to email me offline (just google me) to discuss the switch after a long career in private practice and (in confidence) any questions you might have. I was a partner at Covington & Burling -- a successful one -- when I made the switch in 2014. Nobody thought I was crazy, despite the staggering drop in income for the family, and a surprising number of colleagues were wistful that they wouldn't get similar support (from their families) to make the jump. I am tenured now and don't regret it for an instant.

Posted by: Erika Lietzan | Nov 20, 2019 5:06:23 PM

Thank you, profs, for your continued candor on the career impact of being at a lower ranked school. For those who find that being at a B-100 school has a negative impact on one's ability to advance in one's field, do you think the effect is strong enough that looking back you would have turned down an offer at a lower ranked school to either (a) see what happens at higher ranked schools interviewing in the spring or (b) try again another year, presuming one can get another good publication out the door to help with the application?

Posted by: Reputation | Nov 20, 2019 2:34:36 PM

Ranking matters, but how much probably varies by person. If you are coming to academia after a prominent VAP/Fellowship, or multiple fellowships, or some other position that allowed you to get a head start on establishing a national reputation, your momentum will help you overcome much (but probably not all) of the disadvantages of starting at a below-100 school. If you are a totally unknown quantity when you start, it may be harder (but not impossible) to build up similar momentum. Regardless of what kind of momentum you have when you start, it takes extra travel and publishing to overcome the reputational disadvantage of being at a B-100 schools. This is lots of work, but its the kind of work that an academic presumably should enjoy. I agree with the previous poster that the biggest challenge is letterhead bias in article submissions, which is both more difficult to overcome and can have increasingly pernicious effects over time. (I started at a below-100 school and lateraled to a much higher ranked school, so my comments reflect that experience.)

Posted by: anonprof | Nov 20, 2019 9:05:41 AM

Those who say school rank doesn't matter—or doesn't matter much—are underestimating the importance of letterhead bias in the article selection process, and the career-long effect that early high-ranked journal placement can have. This isn't to say one can't publish well from lower-ranked schools, but the system is not purely meritocratic and it is definitely more difficult to do so. It's a shame that 2L editors have such power, but such is life in the American legal academy.

Posted by: Anonaprof | Nov 19, 2019 11:49:27 PM

I'm a tenured faculty at a B-100 law school and I never get invited to symposiums, conferences, and workshops at T-20 law schools. Such opportunities are never there. Even though almost everyone knows how competitive our market is, my school's ranking just might affect my reputation as a scholar.

Posted by: Seafloor ooze | Nov 19, 2019 10:56:29 PM

If you haven't heard in a week since a callback or in a week since a hiring meeting?

Posted by: anon3 | Nov 19, 2019 10:37:03 PM

At most law schools, especially public law schools, the dean has to get permission from central administration before they can extend an offer. Thus, it can take several days. We tend to give the lucky candidate an unofficial head's up the day of the meeting, but that may not be all that common. Also, it is not uncommon for the hiring decision to take multiple meetings. If you haven't heard in a week, you probably aren't the first offer, but that doesn't mean the offer won't get to you if the person(s) ranked above you turn it down.

Posted by: AnonLawProf | Nov 19, 2019 8:25:12 PM

If a faculty vote was scheduled for today and I haven't heard a word, is that a bad sign? It's a public law school if that matters.

Posted by: nooffer | Nov 19, 2019 7:23:31 PM

For professors who had significant experience in practice before entering teaching, do you enjoy the new gigs? My family thinks I'm crazy making the switch without a forced exit.

Posted by: PracticetoProf? | Nov 19, 2019 3:09:51 PM

I'm a junior faculty at a T-100 law school and I consistently get invited to symposiums, conferences, and workshops at T-20 law schools. The opportunities are always there. Almost everyone knows how competitive our market is, so your school's ranking should not affect your reputation as a scholar.

Posted by: AnonProf | Nov 18, 2019 4:08:50 PM

There’s a junior faculty member in my field who meets that description. I’ve never seen him/her treated other than with the utmost respect at our mutual conferences. I am highly skeptical that anyone in our field cares about his/her placement. (And there’s another junior faculty member in our field with an elite law school placement who folks don’t love.)

I suspect that most faculty members at most schools understand how competitive these things have gotten and feel likewise. Sure there may be the occasional elitist member of the old guard but I think they’re more the exception than the rule. People—especially recent hires—are judged on the quality of their work, and not their institution or law review placements. I personally would be very hesitant to turn down any offer I was excited about without another on the table. I don’t think the median successful candidate is in that position.

Posted by: Aab | Nov 18, 2019 3:10:48 PM

To the prof who said "though I'm at a T125 ranked school, I've published in top journals (including H/Y/S) and am invited to give talks and write symposium pieces at a variety of schools, including T15 / 25," thank you. That is very encouraging. Have you found that initially you had a more difficult time especially with publishing in highly-ranked law reviews than your peers at higher-ranked schools? Or did you find that student editors at most schools focused on the content of the article?

There is a T125 school where I feel like life could be really good--I could teach in an area that interests me, the cost of living is low, and I get along with the faculty. I just wondered about whether it is career suicide to take that position instead of a potential T75 position that is in a place with a prohibitively high cost of living and where I would be teaching mostly first year courses outside my area of focus.

Posted by: Reputation | Nov 18, 2019 1:39:53 PM

Some earlier comments ask about school rank and whether it impacts your ability to get offers to give talks at other schools. In my experience, though I'm at a T125 ranked school, I've published in top journals (including H/Y/S) and am invited to give talks and write symposium pieces at a variety of schools, including T15 / 25. I am not unique; many of my colleagues around the country could say the same thing. Assuming your home institution supports you traveling to conferences to meet people in your field, you can build the reputation you want, regardless of where you are.

Posted by: prof | Nov 18, 2019 9:48:45 AM

What should we do if we get the call? Is it customary to ask for time to think about the offer?

Posted by: Hopeful | Nov 18, 2019 8:22:04 AM

perhaps more relevant, for some of us: if you don't get voted an offer, what happens?

Posted by: anon | Nov 17, 2019 9:05:17 PM

At my school, we usually make calls immediately after the hiring meeting. The Dean typically calls. But please note that people with first offers sometimes say no, so we go to our second choice candidate. We may or may not have specifically let that person know they are the second place candidate at the time we make the first offer. Sometimes, if the first offer candidate says no, we have another full hiring meeting to decide who will get the next offer (we don't always rank people in the initial meeting, especially if we are hiring multiple lines, and they are somewhat dependent upon each other).

Posted by: Hiring Chair | Nov 17, 2019 8:52:29 PM

At my school, a member of the appointments committee immediately calls the candidate to let them know an offer is forthcoming. It takes a few days to get the paperwork done, and then the dean calls with the official offer.

Posted by: AnonProf | Nov 17, 2019 9:04:18 AM

How soon after a faculty vote do schools contact the selected candidate?

Posted by: decisiontime | Nov 16, 2019 6:53:13 PM

Are rejections usually/often delivered via calls?

Posted by: anons | Nov 16, 2019 5:17:53 PM

How long does it take a Dean to call after a vote?

Posted by: Anon | Nov 16, 2019 4:16:38 PM

Yes, usually deans call to make offers. If the chair wants to talk, it's likely a bad sign.

Posted by: AnonT | Nov 16, 2019 3:48:34 PM

Does the dean usually make hiring offers him or herself? Trying to parse some communications. Many thanks.

Posted by: anony | Nov 16, 2019 2:12:26 PM

I just had two callbacks this week at T60 law schools on the west coast who did not hire any junior faculty for the last three years. Both schools have basically ran out of a junior cohort, and tenured up most of their existing faculty. Both schools expressed interest at being extremely aggressive about hiring this year, with the hope of making multiple offers. I find it fascinating. In my conversations with the deans of those law schools they confirmed to me that their decision not to hire over the last few years was rooted in austerity measures in the wake of a declining student application pool. Both deans further said they see themselves as coming out of this slump and think they are ready to get back on the hiring train. Now, obviously this could all be an advertising campaign, but to the extent the deans are being candid and honest, I think this might reflect significant changes in the market that could translate to higher hiring numbers already this year. And to this I say -- Amen!

Posted by: MarketChanges | Nov 16, 2019 8:43:04 AM

You should feel free to reach out to the administrative coordinator who helped organize your time as soon you return home, regardless of whether you think you'll get an offer. It is a huge financial burden, and I don't think any sensible faculty member would fault you for getting your reimbursements done promptly. In fact, at many schools, faculty members are constantly dealing with reimbursements after conferences, candidate dinners, etc.

Posted by: anonprof | Nov 16, 2019 8:27:11 AM

This may be a minor or not so minor thing for many of us - but I'm wondering when and how it is appropriate to follow up with schools who planned to reimburse for airline tickets and other travel expenses for callbacks. I imagine it is really easy if you get an offer ("Hello, [administrative assistant who coordinated this trip] I'm so excited to join the school. In the meantime, could you let me know whether you need anything more from me in processing my reimbursement?)

How do you do this if you're still waiting to hear back or were dinged?

Posted by: Reimbursements | Nov 16, 2019 7:11:48 AM

"On the agenda" sounds like the committee has made one or more hiring recommendations. Whether they've recommended you get an offer, and whether the faculty accepts that recommendation, is another question. I don't think there's any reason to assume the recommendation involves only your candidacy, unless you've been told that.

Posted by: AnotherAnonProf | Nov 15, 2019 4:14:34 PM

What does it mean when you are "on the agenda" for a hiring meeting at this point? Does that mean that only you are being considered for an up/down vote? Or does it mean that they are considering you among various other people?

Posted by: OntheAgenda | Nov 14, 2019 3:30:45 PM

If anyone has heard of schools giving offers, please feel free to note "heard they gave offers" in the offer column. At least that provides some info. If the person who received the offer or the school wants to provide more detail or specific confirmation, they can override that cell with detail like "offered 11/4, pending."

Posted by: HeardofOffers | Nov 14, 2019 3:28:29 PM

I'm going to ask friends about any offers that they know about and will try to post the names of schools that have given offers. I ask that others also share offers that they've heard about it. I've posted this information in the past, and schools really don't care that this information is being shared.

Posted by: anonprof | Nov 13, 2019 3:20:44 PM

All the schools I've visited so far have told me they'll be deciding in mid-December.

Posted by: December | Nov 13, 2019 2:15:24 PM

How long do you think I should wait before assuming an offer isn't materializing from a school I've visited? Naturally different schools have different processes and there are other candidates to consider but I wonder what an average timeline and a maximum might be?

Posted by: anony | Nov 13, 2019 1:28:17 PM

Thanks for the responses re salary. Very helpful. One additional question. I read somewhere (that now I cant find) that you should try to negotiate a courtesy appointment with a department where you have your PhD, e.g. economics or history or whatever. But does this give you any tangible benefit over only being appointed to the law school? Is it just to puff up your CV?

Posted by: AnonNego | Nov 12, 2019 8:24:11 PM

When do schools with waitlists usually start moving on those (if at all)? Is it usually in December or the new year?

Posted by: Anon | Nov 12, 2019 6:34:27 PM

@Curious: both of the offers I got allow me until the end of the term (mid December) to make my decision.

@AnonNego: one of my offers is from a public school and the dean explicitly told me after making the offer that while his hands are tied he would be able to make certain salary adjustments in line with other offers I might get. Because it is a public school I was able to see what other junior faculty made the year they started (I have access to a ten year breakdown of the salaries of every member of the faculty). While I did notice that some of them did make a couple thousands of dollars a year more than the base salary I was offered, I ultimately decided not to challenge this and negotiate on this point. Rather I am working on getting the school to provide an academic position for my partner. That position would make our joint salary be tens of thousands higher than any other junior faculty’s and I think it would be greedy of me to demand more for myself while also getting the school to hire my partner in some capacity. But the short answer is that — yes people do negotiate salaries and summer stipends even at public schools.

Posted by: Answers | Nov 12, 2019 9:03:36 AM

Salary: It usually doesn't matter whether a school is public or private -- the dean is going to have some (limited) discretion in regard to making an entry-level salary offer. But it's going to be limited by compression issues as well as overall budgetary constraints. So there might be a little room for salary negotiation, but usually not much.

As to how to find out salaries at a private school, look up the SALT survey to get a ballpark sense, as well as the public salary data at comparable public schools (comparable in terms of reputation and location).

Posted by: AnotherAnonProf | Nov 11, 2019 5:45:22 PM

Question with respect to salary negotiations. At state schools, are salaries fixed, or is there still room for negotiation as with private institutions? Conversely, at a private institution, is there some way to get data on faculty salaries so that I can negotiate with some information as to averages etc?

Posted by: AnonNego | Nov 11, 2019 2:06:37 PM

Re Cutoffs, I think it’s relative. Every school is more excited about having speakers/visitors/authors from places ranked higher than they are, and leas excited if they are lower. So there are no cutoffs. It’s easier to get an invitation to a top100 school if you are in the top 75 vs the top 125.

This definitely applies to the lateral market too. At a serious school, the laterals chair and the people in your field will only
care about your work. But their colleagues who need tovote for you and their dean who needs to hire you will need less
convincing the higher ranked your school.

Posted by: Hiring Prof | Nov 9, 2019 9:55:16 PM

Cutoffs?, how long did you offers last?

I’d also like to know what people consider the tiers to be in terms of top schools and where the invites and respect falls off significantly. Is it T-50? T75?

Posted by: Curious | Nov 9, 2019 5:11:46 PM

I second Wondering’s question. In terms of law school rankings and tiers where is that cutoff? T30? T60? T90? T120? Also how is the lateraling game affected from your first school’s rank? Will a T60 find a harder time to go up the ranking than a T30? Does that even matter or do they only look at your publications and name recognition and connection at that point?

Re flybacks: I think the practiced norm is now to allow one fly back for you and your partner regardless of whether you have other offers to allow for further meetings with faculty and to assist the both of you in apartment searching. I have two offers and they both included that in the offer letter.

Posted by: Cutoffs? | Nov 9, 2019 3:16:08 PM

What’s the definition of “low ranked?” I’d be curious to hear from the law review angle and the invitation example, where the cut off is between highly respected, respected, and hard to get attention?

Posted by: Wondering | Nov 9, 2019 12:37:05 PM

Re reputation and home institution, we were trying to convince a senior, tenured, well-known, Ivy League law professor to invite a tenured, very well-known and well-published in technology law professor from a lower-ranked institution for a talk. The Ivy League professor's response: "If [the professor to be invited] is so damn smart, why is [the other professor] teaching at [lower-ranked institution]?"

Posted by: AnonFellow | Nov 9, 2019 10:39:33 AM

I agree with everything Hiring Prof says. The biggest effect by far is in regard to article placement in law reviews. The top reviews get vastly more submissions than they can possibly evaluate in even the most cursory way, so most of the time the only way somebody from a low-ranked school can get an article reviewed is by playing the expediting game, and the lower ranked your school is, the farther you have to expedite up the ladder to even be considered.

It's an indefensible system, but you should be aware that this is how it works (or doesn't).

Posted by: AnotherAnonProf | Nov 9, 2019 12:07:10 AM

Your reputation is your own, and mostly* independent of your school, for people who know who you are and read your work. But for people outside your field or who have never heard of you, they will sometimes assume you aren't worth their time if you are at a very low-ranked school, and will assume you must be important or worthwhile if you are at a very high-ranked school.

That means that student law review editors can definitely be affected by this bias. It can also make it harder to get invitations to conferences if you aren't that well-known. And even if you are well-known, sometimes people want to make sure their conference has impressive-looking names that will impress the dean or their colleagues. So it's harder.

* Even among people in your field who know your work, there are plenty of crass instrumentalists who are more likely to cite you, read you, and/or be nice to you if they think their own careers might benefit -- which is more likely if you are at a higher-ranked school than them.

I don't endorse any of this, and I hesitate to write it down, but the costs are real and you should know about them.

Posted by: Hiring Prof | Nov 8, 2019 10:41:19 PM

AnotherAnonProf. Thanks for the response. What does this bias look like? Everything I described or something different? How do you recommend working to overcome these biases? Also, is my reputation as a scholar my own? How much is my personal reputation as a scholar tied to the school?

Flybacks: maybe it depends on the school but the school where I have a pending offer is flying me back pre-acceptance so my husband can check out the place.

Posted by: Gambler | Nov 8, 2019 7:27:17 PM

Do schools usually pay for flybacks? After you accept their offer or only if trying to decide between schools?

Posted by: Flybacks | Nov 8, 2019 7:09:44 PM

Gambler,

Yeah there's a huge amount of letterhead and resume bias in legal academia. If you are at a low-ranked school, you'll run into that all the time. It doesn't mean you can't have a successful career by any means, but it does mean you will run into a lot of bias based on where you teach.

Now with the entry level market being as brutal as it is, maybe that bias will be somewhat ameliorated by the recognition that a lot of people who could have gotten better jobs not long ago have had to take jobs at very low-ranked places. But that's speculative.

One note of caution: If it's really low-ranked, you want to try to suss out the school's financial situation. A half dozen ABA schools have gone out of business in the last three years, and that number is likely to grow.

Posted by: AnotherAnonProf | Nov 8, 2019 7:07:08 PM

I imagine there are more people with offers who are just not listing them in the spreadsheet (probably for fear of schools knowing who is reporting).

How many of you are dealing with this question about whether to take an offer from a lower ranked school versus waiting to see whether you get an offer from a higher ranked one? (But knowing if you wait for the higher ranked one and they don't select you, you could end up with no offers at all) I think the issue of tiers is something that has been brought up in these comments, but not very directly with regard to actual consequences on one's academic career?

In my case, I have an offer from a lower ranked T4. I like the school, but I know how elitist the academy is. Is there any real downside to accepting a good offer from a T4 school? Will my colleagues at other universities respect me? invite me to their workshops? Will journals publish my papers? Will I be invited to symposia? Do I need to work harder than others to get those invitations?

Posted by: Gambler | Nov 8, 2019 5:02:19 PM

Thanks Professor Kerr, that's very helpful.

Posted by: anon | Nov 7, 2019 3:25:57 PM

Hiring prof chiming in to say please share news about offers with schools you remain interested in. Other people are doing it, and we don't see it as awkward at all. And we're juggling 100 things on our end related to timing of faculty votes, the length of time our other offers remain open, etc., so knowing about any constraints on your end is incredibly helpful to us. It can be a short email that says essentially, "I'm reaching out let you know that I received an offer from School X that expires on Y date. I remain very interested in your school, so I wanted to keep you updated on the process from my end. Thanks, ___."

Posted by: Jessica Erickson | Nov 7, 2019 9:52:50 AM

anon writes: "I'm curious to know how the status of a candidate's background affects committee decisions at lower ranked schools, if at all. In short, I've got some fancy degrees but I'm very put off by the status worship I find in the legal academy and I would be very happy to wind up at a range of schools. I'm worried about getting written off as a flight risk or not seriously interested at lower ranked schools, while at the same time getting beaten by other well qualified candidates at T-30 schools."

I think schools up and down the US News rankings want to know when a candidate is genuinely interested in them. It's particularly important at schools that may have had recent experience with candidates that they concluded in retrospect were just toying with them, using them for practice, or using them for offers elsewhere. Of course, these days having fancy degrees is nice but doesn't get you a job anywhere by itself, so it's hard to give guidance to anyone in particular without knowing a lot more. But I would say that if you're really interested in a school that might not expect to get you, it can be important to make sure the school knows that -- either by having references make sure the appointments chair there is aware of that, or by expressing the kind of individualized enthusiasm that sends that signal.

Posted by: Orin Kerr | Nov 6, 2019 11:39:08 PM

Anonprof,

Your points are good ones. But there is extreme bias in this field, and quite frankly it is rare that a candidate can overcome it. Proxies are extremely powerful and whatever you write is always measured with a thumb on the scale. Maybe your writing isn’t that great. But there are only a handful of people whose writing is truly exceptional. And that does not include most candidates. Critical self-reflection often reveals failings, but just it often it reveals that that things are simply unfair

Posted by: Anon | Nov 6, 2019 10:25:07 PM

It is a very competitive market, and it may be difficult to decipher your weaknesses without the aid of trustworthy references. Having real friends, who are law professors, helps a lot. You need people who can give you feedback and let you know why you're striking out despite having 6 publications. It may be that your publications are in journals that law professors don't give an f about, or the quality of your writing isn't as good as you think because you haven't been getting substantive feedback. Or, the school just so happened to interview several candidates who published 8 or more articles in top 5 law reviews.

Alternatively, maybe one of your references doesn't like you, or even worse, is sabotaging you. It's such an awful thing to consider, but I know of a couple of people who learned this about their references through back channels. You may think your reference likes you and thinks you're awesome because you got an a in her class, but that person might actually think you are kind of pedestrian in your approach to the law. It helps to have people you can trust during this process.

Posted by: anonprof | Nov 6, 2019 10:09:26 PM

"I had no idea how competitive this is."

Ha. Rigged, you mean.

Posted by: A non | Nov 6, 2019 8:18:32 PM

Is anyone else utterly depressed right now?
How bad would it be to turn down what could be your only offer because it's at an unranked school that seems only out for profit and that you did not enjoy when you visited campus? I like to think I'm a nice person and I have 6 publications and great references. I had no idea how competitive this is.

Posted by: Depressed | Nov 6, 2019 6:02:43 PM

Thanks, that's helpful. Just to be clear, in case it was not, I was not suggesting that I'm somehow vastly more qualified than other candidates. I've just heard comments from potential colleagues conveying a bit of surprise that I'm interested in the school. (Of course, perhaps this is a bit of polite flattery and an attempt to determine the seriousness of my interest.) Given the state of the job market, and my own ambivalence about the status game, I'm definitely not going to turn up my nose at a decent school.

Posted by: anon | Nov 6, 2019 4:51:16 PM

Everyone is well qualified at this point, so I'd be surprised if advanced degrees mattered in the way you're asking about. Publication record is likely far more influential than education. If you're worried about schools not thinking you'll take them seriously, have your references/mentors reach out to the hiring chairs to candidly discuss your interest (it will be more believable coming from them). Hiring committees are your friends; give them information!

Posted by: anon | Nov 6, 2019 4:26:58 PM

I'm curious to know how the status of a candidate's background affects committee decisions at lower ranked schools, if at all. In short, I've got some fancy degrees but I'm very put off by the status worship I find in the legal academy and I would be very happy to wind up at a range of schools. I'm worried about getting written off as a flight risk or not seriously interested at lower ranked schools, while at the same time getting beaten by other well qualified candidates at T-30 schools.

Posted by: anon | Nov 6, 2019 3:54:52 PM

Absolutely tell other schools about other offers and deadlines. Schools will move quickly if they need to, and generally won't if they don't.

As for trailing spouses, this is a routine part of the hiring game now. Don't bring it up until you have an offer though.

Posted by: AnotherAnonProf | Nov 4, 2019 11:21:57 PM

Also as far as timing—I think schools understand you need to do callbacks to find the right fit for you. Obviously extensions get tricky as people said earlier up the thread, but it’s not bad to finish scheduled callbacks while offer is pending.

Posted by: Anon | Nov 4, 2019 8:48:00 PM

You should definitely tell hiring chairs about an offer. We all know how hard it is to get any job in this environment. Hiring chairs want to know about anything that may affect their timeline, and I don’t think anyone would think, “oh they got an offer from that place? Not in our league.” Instead, it’s a sign the market likes you, regardless.

Posted by: Anon | Nov 4, 2019 8:46:52 PM

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