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Monday, August 26, 2013

A Clearinghouse for Questions, 2013-2014

In this post, you can ask questions about the law teaching market, and prawfs or others can weigh in.

Both questions and answers can be anonymous, but I will delete pure nastiness, irrelevance, and misinformation. If you see something that you know to be wrong, please feel free to let me know via email, slawsky*at*law*dot*uci*dot*edu.

We have a different thread in which candidates or prawfs can report on callbacks, offers, and acceptances. That thread should be used only for information relevant to hiring, not for questions or comments on the process. This is the thread for questions.

(Before you ask your questions, you may want to take a look at the many questions and answers in the threads from 2011-2012 and 2012-2013.) 

Update: here is a link to the last page of comments.

Posted by Sarah Lawsky on August 26, 2013 at 11:02 AM in Getting a Job on the Law Teaching Market | Permalink


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I'm interested to know how many invitations for screening interviews people received from schools now that it is over and (hopefully) won't cause too much angst. I had 30+ schools contact me for interviews, but didn't meet with everyone. But I don't think I was a "top" candidate going in and am wondering if anyone broke 40 interview invitations. I'm assuming the people breaking 40 were the top folks?

Posted by: Anon | Oct 21, 2013 9:58:46 AM

Do hiring committees tend to call references before making callbacks, or after the callback (and before the final vote)?

Posted by: anon | Oct 21, 2013 9:51:54 AM

Sad thing is that many of us have qualifications much greater than entry level candidates had 5,10 years ago. Many of the people interviewing would not get hired in today's market. I think as long as you keep writing no one would hold it against someone if they return to practice, though I would think perhaps government practice might be better since it could give greater time to write and could be seen as more relevant (ie public defender if you are crim law). If you go back to practice I think you can't just disappear (even though it will be hard not to because you will be working so hard). Try to go to conferences, etc

Posted by: anon | Oct 21, 2013 9:45:34 AM

Folks - don't freak out if you didn't get calls over the weekend. The callback I received for the job I now hold came mid-week following the conference, and my interview was on the Friday. Some committees wait until they get back home to meet, so it's definitely too early to panic. I agree though that after this week, the odds are that if a school hasn't called, you weren't on their A-list. Good luck to all!

Posted by: been there | Oct 21, 2013 9:40:37 AM

I suspect that no one will hold it against you, Respite. Everyone knows this is a ridiculous market. Best to wait it out someplace where you can earn a living, live near your spouse, etc.

Posted by: VotMM | Oct 21, 2013 9:26:38 AM

All -- I'm no superstar but probably a good candidate. I'm currently a VAP and have not had much luck this hiring season. I don't expect to get a faculty position. I'm hoping that has to do more with the state of the market rather than my credentials. I enjoy practice and have the opportunity to start at a law firm next summer when my VAP ends. I'm thinking about taking that option, rather than taking another VAP and entering the market again next year and/or the year after. If I took the law firm position, I would enter the market a few years down the road. Will schools incorrectly perceive my time in practice as a sign that I'm not dedicated to academics?

Posted by: Respite | Oct 21, 2013 1:22:52 AM

Thread two is now up.


Posted by: Sarah Lawsky | Oct 20, 2013 10:52:09 PM

I think anotheranonprof is way overstating the doom and gloom. There are not 15-20 superstars. Under any reasonable definition, there are maybe 5 or so. And the suggestion that shadowy insider candidates are taking spots away in some illegitimate manner is misplaced. At least at my school, the "insider" candidates are generally what would be considered "superstars" on the open market. They could easily land better positions than us on the open market, but for various reasons (usually geography) have a specific interest in us. I have yet to encounter a single hire at my school who had credentials below our usual hiring standards but got hired simply due to their great and influential contacts (trailing spouses are a little different, but there are not that many two-tenure-track couples on the entry level market).

Posted by: anonprof | Oct 20, 2013 10:20:14 PM

"This year, I don't know if there will be more of a delay, as it is a buyer's market for schools."

That is my school's thought. While we have already sorted out our top group, we will meet on Monday and decide who to invite and when. We will not invite immediately--likely, we will first request extra information (teaching evals and the like). There is even talk that if the first group doesn't work out (as unlikely as that seems), that we might bring back more people in January. We plan on letting people know if they are completely out of consideration or are on the maybe list.

It was strange to see how empty the Marriott was. I saw very few candidates running between interviews, and the stairwells were mostly empty. Many mistook me for a candidate and wished me good luck (I wished them good luck as well!), so I didn't pick up on the hostility.

None of us really know if the market will improve anytime soon. Several friends on other hiring committees admitted to having several lines open, but only hiring a few to be cautious, to help attract a new dean, or the like. At some point, hopefully the waiting will end and we'll all go on a hiring binge. That being said, I would strongly advise anyone with a law firm job to think very carefully before leaving it for a VAP, given that we don't know if/when the hiring will pick up.

Posted by: 5thyearprawf | Oct 20, 2013 10:19:51 PM

i guess nobody is putting up a thread two on callbacks...

Posted by: anon | Oct 20, 2013 10:01:01 PM

One callback so far, rank between 20 and 50.

Posted by: Anon | Oct 20, 2013 9:52:09 PM

And for the 40 jobs available for the rest of us....remember too there are lots of underplaced laterals trying to move up... Who would you take, a 2nd or 3rd year underplaced prof who had 2-3 years to publish his or her resume? Or an entry level?

Going to be a tough year for all and as noted earlier, might be a multi-year process to be one of those 40 people arbitrarily chosen. Maybe this year you won't but if you hang in there luck will be on your side.

I think it is more likely there are about 60 real jobs given 95 schools (81 aals) interviewing, I would think a third are ether clinical or not seriously hiring.

Posted by: Anon | Oct 20, 2013 9:51:05 PM

Doom gloom, doom gloom, good luck to all ? Other than that Mrs Lincoln ...
No, seriously, why finish a post like that with a cheery little 'good luck' note?

It would be interesting to hear how many people are getting how many callbacks. I've had only one so far.

Posted by: M | Oct 20, 2013 9:36:01 PM

Sorry, should be "who aren't PhD SCOTUS clerks etc"

Posted by: Anotheranonprof | Oct 20, 2013 8:06:18 PM

There are probably about 75 entry level positions available this year. That may be optimistic. 15-20 of these will go to the superstar candidates everybody is trying to hire. Another 20 or so will go to inside candidates via cronyism, trailing spouse deals and the like. So there are probably about 40 jobs available to people with fairly awesome credentials, but who are PhD Scotus clerks with three articles in top 20 journals.

These jobs will be distributed in what will appear to be an arbitrary process, because there will be about three great candidates for every job, so of course the final choices will have to largely arbitrary.

Good luck to all.

Posted by: Anotheranonprof | Oct 20, 2013 8:03:01 PM

In the past, almost all calls were made right after the conference (i.e. Sunday), or latest within the week after. Committees try to use the time they are actually together in DC to make decisions, since they often don't have time to get together when they get back to their schools. I have heard of calls coming even as early as Friday night, as schools pick their top candidates from that day's interviews first.

This year, I don't know if there will be more of a delay, as it is a buyer's market for schools. However, I would speculate that since schools are basically still on the same timeline (they want to get all their interviews done before finals start usually), I would imagine callbacks are being scheduled on the same schedule.

I want to reiterate the point grainofsand made above - you may never hear back from some schools at which you interviewed. Not to be a downer, but no news is usually bad news. Very very occasionally, you hear back from a school a month later that wants to interview you, but it is exceedingly rare (it is usually a school that can't get its act together to interview - a bad sign). If you haven't heard within a week or so, you can assume you are not getting a callback.

You may, if you wish, email the head of the hiring committee to ask about your status. However, be prepared for no response whatsoever. Not a polite "we are still considering candidates" but literally, no response. Very few schools are transparent about the hiring process, for lots of good and bad reasons, but the lack of transparency is one of the most frustrating things about the process.

Posted by: anonandoff | Oct 20, 2013 7:34:03 PM

Yes what I meant was there were 100-150 people interviewing at the meat market. Anyone who got interviews in this market is a serious candidate I think. If you spend $750-1000 to try to get a job you are pretty serious.

I don't think anyone has any illusions about the market being better next year. But for those who do not get jobs this year maybe your field will be more in demand next year or you will place articles higher next year. Somone who gets a job is not better all the time than someone who did not. If you have the financial resource to do this 1 or 2 more times I think most of us will get something. It may take a cycle or two to clean out current vaps, etc. it might even be easier getting legal writing this year because maybe people will be reluctant to go down that path. But if you already invested 2 years of your life and gave up hundreds of thousands in lost revenue already it would be a shame to give up this cycle if you do not get a job.

Posted by: anon | Oct 20, 2013 7:12:42 PM

No, what "anon" meant was that there were only 100-150 candidates who themselves are serious about the process, in terms of actually doing preparation and knowing the basic rules of the game, and are not people who throw their names in the FAR ring on the theory that "I'll retire and teach" or "any idiot can do what my law school professors did so why don't I" or "I just got laid off so why not submit my resume to 200 law schools." It is to screen out these unserious people that the process has all sorts of unwritten traps for the unwary.

Posted by: anonprof | Oct 20, 2013 6:41:42 PM

"I heard there were 100-150 serious candidates at the meat market."

There are two problems with this observation. The first is that while everyone will have their list of "100-150 serious candidates," the overlap from person to person will be only partial, so there are probably a lot more than 100-150 people on SOMEONE'S list of "top 100-150 candidates."

The second problem is that there will invariably be a handful or more of "non-serious" candidates who get jobs because either (1) they work in a hard-to-fill area like tax or commercial law, or (2) they're an inside candidate who knows someone at a particular school.

Also, with respect to the "multi-year process" point, people should keep in mind that there is going to be at least one more, and perhaps two, classes of VAPs/fellows who decided to go down the pre-academic road before it was clear how crappy the job market was going to be. So don't count on the market contracting next year or maybe the year after. (Though after that is probably a different story.)

Posted by: Bearer of bad news | Oct 20, 2013 5:06:20 PM

I heard there were 100-150 serious candidates at the meat market. So if you are geographically flexible and would accept any school (even low ranked ones) and you at least made it to the meat market this year you probably have a decent shot at getting a TT eventually - this year or next year if your subject was not in demand this year. Some people who go to the meat market are clueless about the process. At the introductory session, one person asked the moderators if he should knock on doors of the schools to which the moderators responded to definitely not do that. I don't think the AALS should really call this a "conference" because I think for some people it created the impression that it would be easy to get interviews at the conference and handing out that sheet reinforces that impression. It is not really a "conference" since almost everything is pre-arranged and it is very difficult if not impossible, to make connections at the conference. Of course all info about the meat market is readily available online but it is a shame that people would expend so much money and time just because they are clueless about the process.

I wonder if next year alot of people will not register for Aals given what happened this year. We may see a tightening of the pool which will be good for those of us who may have to do this a second time. At that session, they said that for most of us, it will be a multi-year process.

Good luck to everyone!

Posted by: Anon | Oct 20, 2013 4:37:49 PM

Requests for call backs happen more randomly than I think is indicated in the comments here. It is true that some schools call on Sunday evening. Annawn congratulations on your call back tonight, Saturday evening is uncommon but happens. Many interview calls are made in the week or two after FRC. But calls can go out all the way until the exam period in December. Then usually there's a lull both in offers and interviews until faculties return from winter break. After that few people get calls because either the law school has signed someone for next year or is too exhausted to go after its second or third pick. But there are people who have gotten offers in January and February; although, most of those were from top tier schools. The latest I've heard of anyone getting an offer was April!

So, the process is not regularized, and unfortunately for those who do not get interviews right away and even those who do it's tough dealing with the uncertainty.

All you can do is hang on during this ride and try to stay busy and focused to keep from letting this process toss your emotions about.

Posted by: AnonProf | Oct 19, 2013 11:33:10 PM

Some schools did not have their chair there, I doubt those schools will come till later in the week.

Posted by: anon11 | Oct 19, 2013 10:48:53 PM

In past years, my callbacks came within a week. One was on Saturday night. This year, most schools that I asked said I should expect to hear within 2 weeks. Not sure if people are going to be more deliberate this year since it's such a buyer's market?

Or maybe I was getting blown off? Who knows. They'll come or they won't. Not much to do about it now.

Posted by: Veteran of the meat market | Oct 19, 2013 10:24:55 PM

Lower ranked schools (still could be great jobs!) offer callbacks quickly, higher ranked schools move much slower.

Posted by: Anon | Oct 19, 2013 7:45:52 PM

I've already had a post-meat-market call-back call.

Posted by: Annawn | Oct 19, 2013 7:15:03 PM

In the past I have gotten all of my callbacks within days of the conference.

One piece of advice: based on my experiences in the past, about half of the committees may NEVER give you a status update. Honestly, one of my greatest frustrations with this process is having to draw my own conclusions from candidate reports about callbacks and offers on this blog. I realize hiring committee members are busy and that the processes at many schools are unpredictable. But seriously, it doesn't take that much time to email each candidate and give them as much clarity as you can--even if all you can say is something like, "We cannot invite you for a callback at this time, but that may change so please do keep us posted on any developments on your end." Even a mass email is better than silence.

Ok, rant over. For planning purposes, if you don't hear from a school in the next two weeks, you should assume you aren't in the game at that school anymore. If you find yourself agonizing over the schools you haven't heard from, I recommend that you reach out and simply ask. I should note that in the past, some of my mentors have told me not to reach out to committees unless I had an offer in hand. But in this market, I personally think a minimal breach of decorum will be worth it if that keeps me from holding out unrealistic hopes for several more months.

Best of luck to everyone! Do something nice this weekend to celebrate that the meat market part of this process is behind you.

Posted by: grainofsand | Oct 19, 2013 3:49:02 PM

Hope that's true. I'd rather know thumb's up or down, pretty much right away. Move on.

Posted by: M | Oct 19, 2013 2:47:53 PM

For what it's worth, last year I'd received the invitations for my four callbacks by the Sunday night the weekend of the conference (I think one of them actually called Sat. night); so I heard from everyone I was going to hear from right away. (None of my on-campus interviews were with super-elite schools; those might operate on a very different time table.)

Rejections from the other schools that interviewed me at the FRC trickled in very slowly, starting maybe a month later. Some I never heard from again at all. (Maybe I should have sent thank-you emails; I never figured that one out.)

Good luck to all the candidates, and hang in there!

Posted by: anon new prof | Oct 19, 2013 1:01:26 PM

Based on last years thread it appears calls started on Sunday, and most were done within a week or two.

Posted by: Anon | Oct 19, 2013 12:13:41 PM

but what does "right away" mean? After the conference concludes this afternoon?

Posted by: anon | Oct 19, 2013 11:53:35 AM

Would love to know the answer to the callback question but I suspect that it may vary quite a bit, right? Top choices right away but as we play musical chairs, calls could come in a month or more, and if funding situations change even later? Correct?

Posted by: M | Oct 19, 2013 11:23:30 AM

No one really mentions where they are interviewing but otherwise everyone seems nice. Everyone is in such different fields anyway so there is no reason for competition. Everyone is in the same boat w a crummy market,

Posted by: anon | Oct 19, 2013 11:20:22 AM

When do schools make decisions about callbacks?

Posted by: Anon | Oct 19, 2013 9:46:24 AM

Same here, other candidates seem perfectly friendly to me.

Posted by: candidate | Oct 19, 2013 7:51:41 AM

Gosh, everyone seems friendly to me. I haven't gotten an blank stares at all. Am I'm not a PhD or SCOTUS clerk or fellow. Dunno. I assume the badness of the market took the form of weeding out interviewing schools and interviewees in the first instance. I guess that's what I meant by proportional thinning. I would have guessed that we all have the same prospects at this point as people in normal years, because the herd has already been thinned.

Posted by: M | Oct 19, 2013 6:07:13 AM

That seems right. The top people who are not fellows seem to be either PhDs or former Supreme Court clerks.

To the candidates on the market this year, keep doing what you're doing. We're all rooting for you and know that you're all excellent scholars.

Posted by: anon | Oct 19, 2013 1:20:52 AM

There may be top people who are not fellows but they are probably phd or Supreme Court clerks. Or just amazing people who can bill 60 hours a week at a law firm & produce great scholarly work with no support.

Posted by: anon | Oct 19, 2013 12:54:30 AM

I would say though that almost everyone I met is a phd or fellow and sometimes both. I have not met anyone who was not either.

It is a very tough year and it is very subject matter dependent. Whoever got 30 interviews is literally interviewing with almost 40% of all schools so they must have a very in demand subject matter (actually probably 2 in demand subject matters) because beyond the top 14 is very subject matter dependent. You can be the greatest candidate in the world but if you are family law and they want tax they are wasting everyone's time interviewing you unless they just want to see the extremely few candidates who got 30 interviews in this market just for curiosity or to eye for lateral moves.

This is my first time here but it does not seem crowded. Elevators are not crowded or anything. I don't think there are that many here which is why I think alot of people are going home tomorrow

Posted by: anon | Oct 19, 2013 12:41:45 AM

And, I should add, I know several people who are likely "top " candidates who are not fellows. That said, my overall impression is that this is a bad year in general, of course.

Posted by: Anon | Oct 18, 2013 11:50:55 PM

I know someone who had more than 30 invitations, though I think the person is doing much fewer.

Posted by: Anon | Oct 18, 2013 11:33:06 PM

It's my first time here, but the conference seems rather empty. Interviewers have been animated, but tonight's reception was lifeless. Also, are fellow candidates always so competitive, or is it the nature of this year's market? Even smiles and "good luck" comments have been met with cold stares.

Posted by: anonymous | Oct 18, 2013 10:18:40 PM

I've talked to a few people here who have fewer interviews (maybe half as many) as they had in previous years.

Posted by: candidate | Oct 18, 2013 8:36:16 PM

I don't think anyone has 25-30 interviews, which was not uncommon a few years ago for great candidates. Maybe a few superstars do but I have talked to fellows, etc at the top programs and they are not stacked back to back or anything. So if there are people w tons all day I don't know who they are. I think most have 5-10.

Also alot of teams are 2-3 people in the sheet. I wonder if those schools are seriously hiring just sending 2-3 people.

Posted by: anon | Oct 18, 2013 7:55:21 PM

They said at the intro thing yesterday they are use to having 160 schools. This year only 95 schools,81 of which are AALS members. Subtract the clinical plus the schools that are not "really" hiring and the number lessens.. Anecdotally it seems most people I talk to just have half dozen interviews at most. Alot seem to be done already & are leaving tomorrow.

Posted by: Anon | Oct 18, 2013 7:45:30 PM

What's interesting I think is that the contraction seems to be proportional, I.e., fewer schools, fewer candidates, but folks still have a reasonable number of interviews, if I am hearing the chit chat correctly. In other words, if there are 200 interviews to go around, it's 20 people with 10, rather than 50 people with 4. Perhaps that's wrong, but my sense is that the busy people are still busy, and there aren't a lot of folks with only a couple of interviews. Would be fun to see someone model this visually over years.

Posted by: M | Oct 18, 2013 6:53:59 PM

how long until schools start to offer callbacks? at what point is it reasonable to suppose that a callback is not in the offing?

Posted by: waiting | Oct 18, 2013 6:20:14 PM

There were 142 schools that attended in 2012, 166 in 2011.

Posted by: prawfagain | Oct 18, 2013 3:38:01 PM

There are only 94 accredited or provisionally accredited U.S. law schools at the conference this year. Over 200 such law schools exist--I do not have last year's list here but I would be very surprised if it were such a low number. I have been here as an interviewer for several years. Neither I nor any of my colleagues have ever seen it so empty here.

Posted by: Anon | Oct 18, 2013 3:01:55 PM

Feels like a ghost town at the Marriott!

Posted by: M | Oct 18, 2013 1:42:29 PM

anon @ 3:22 -- I disagree that it will take 5 years for things to recover. While LSAT numbers may again be down, we've likely reached the bottom and students will soon start returning to law school. I think the future candidate will be of a different mold than the current one. He or she will have both a VAP/fellowship and an advanced degree, some real practice experience, and a clear and compelling research agenda.

Posted by: anon | Oct 18, 2013 2:22:02 AM

Fair enough! I'm not looking to write up, in any case -- want to find somewhere comfy and stay put w/ family. And no point worrying over a bridge I may not get to. :-) Thanks, to you both.

Posted by: M | Oct 17, 2013 5:32:03 PM

M--we'll help you cross that bridge when you get there. Focus on being your best these next few days, then worry if you get callbacks for schools you are no longer interested in. As AnonProf said, it really isn't a problem. Really, I think the only reason people sometimes still remember a few years down the line is they are mentally thinking whether you are a potential lateral candidate.

Posted by: 5thyearprawf | Oct 17, 2013 5:28:17 PM

Thanks, anonprof. I am struggling with this a bit. I have been open minded taking calls for screening interviews, but of course I have been researching heavily in the interim, and I find myself more enthusiastic about half of my schools and less enthusiastic about the other half.

Posted by: M | Oct 17, 2013 2:29:15 PM


I answered yesterday, but my reply seems to have gotten lost in the ether.

It's normal to turn down offers. All schools from first to fourth tier experience that. Just do so graciously and respectfully. The critical thing is to only accept call backs at institutions you're considering. Once you visit, you could well find that it's not for you and your family.

Posted by: AnonProf | Oct 17, 2013 12:04:20 PM

Has ANYONE seen the October LSAT numbers yet? Any idea when they come out?

Posted by: anon | Oct 17, 2013 11:09:21 AM

recall what was noted at the beginning of this thread: last year 85 schools advertised in FAR; this year 33. Even though there is not a 1 to 1 correlation between FAR and actual jobs, and not everyone posts, it still is probably at least 30% less jobs than last year - and last year was down from the year prior.

With LSAT numbers being down again, I don't expect this to change much for the next 5 years though you might get less people trying to enter the law teaching market. People now thinking of teaching might just give up when they realize that you basically have to do a VAP or Ph.D. (and increasingly BOTH!)in order to get a teaching job (unless you are superhuman & can somehow manage to produce high quality scholarship while billing 60 hours a week - and with little to no support from other scholars). The opportunity costs of doing law teaching - plus the added risk that you will even get a job even if you do a VAP or Ph.D. or even both - might discourage people from even trying. As such, while the number of spots may decline, perhaps next year you won't get 600 people filling out the first FAR. it might take 1-2 cycles for current stragglers to exit the system and then you basically will be left only with the 75 or so VAPs plus some Ph.D. people plus some random Supreme Court clerks - the only ones who really have a chance at most jobs anyway unless they have a specific tie to a school.

I expect too the trend toward interdisciplinary scholarship will continue too because for the most part, you are most competitive for these VAPs if you have an advanced degree. Some of the them in fact are completely populated by Ph.Ds. That was not the case 5 years ago. It is near impossible for a random smart HYS person who worked at a firm to get a law teaching job at all - and it is increasingly the case they can't even get a fellowship without an advanced degree or being superhuman. This too may affect certain groups more than others; people who are more mobile, whether by age, or family circumstance, will benefit under this new system whereas equally talented but immobile people will have it a lot more difficult if doing both Ph.D. and VAP become de facto requirements at the top schools at least. People get more risk averse as they age as they have mortgages and families so unless people go straight to law school from college people will be approaching 35-40 before they even have a shot at getting a law teaching job.

Posted by: anon | Oct 17, 2013 3:22:27 AM

That's really depressing. Any guesses when things will improve? Will next year be better than this one?

Posted by: Anon12 | Oct 17, 2013 1:18:40 AM

The market is exponentially worse than usual. Dramatically worse even than the usual annual stiffening of competition. Do not take your outcomes personally. It's not you, it's us.

Posted by: yetanotherprof | Oct 16, 2013 5:04:08 PM

I don't think the market is better than expected - how much worse would one want it to be? I doubt there are more than 75 schools with positions (and probably even less). Last year it was like 110 and the year before 150. And many of the schools interviewing may not even end up actually hiring; I know of at least one school on the list with many interviewees that is expressly telling people the line may or may not get approved and they will not know till after the new year. These numbers also belie the fact that of the perhaps 75 positions advertised, many may not go to entry level candidates. There are a ton of under placed people from the last few cycles, so many of them are also in the pool looking to move up. Also people from seton hall and other similar schools are scrambling. You have alot of people competing for these positions and no can would contest that this is a market not seen on years (or even seen at all in recent memory).

Posted by: anon11 | Oct 16, 2013 4:47:17 PM

AnonProf, if after the FRC and following additional research, conversations with spouse, studying the town, etc., etc., it becomes clear that it isn't a good fit, for whatever reason, then how does one phrase the decision to decline the callback? And, see, 5th year, being late --> off rhythm and have to improvise --> opportunity to shine --> callback. If you deal well with unexpected variables, then having your stiletto break on the way into the room could be a plus. If you wear stilettos, that is.

Posted by: M | Oct 16, 2013 9:31:01 AM

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