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Friday, November 25, 2011
Skills without substance
I have stayed out of the fray over David Segal's attack on legal education, leaving it to the many others who have done a masterful job of taking the piece apart.
I do want to flag two recent posts. First, Neil Buchanan discusses Segal's criticism of schools for teaching Hadley v. Baxendale (which Segal makes fun of for being old and aboutrather than teaching students how to draft a contract, reminding us that Hadley stands for a signficant principle of contract damages, adopted throughout much of the United States and that a lawyer who does not know this rule will not be able to draft a good contract. Second, Jason Mazzone looks at Segal's criticism that schools teach criminal procedure, with its focus on case studies of common law crimes rather than training students in how to plea bargain. Jason successfully got The Times to run a correction that Segal meant Criminal Law rather than Crim Pro. But even with the correction, Jason rightly calls Segal's criticism "just weird," because "no lawer could conduct plea negotiations without understanding the basis of the charged crime, which, of course, requires knowledge of the substantive law."
Both critiques hit Segal for the same defect in the article: His assumption that future lawyers only need to learn practical skills and technical details and that they do not need to learn substantive law or how to identify, analyze, and work with substantive law. They need to know how to draft a contract, but they don't have to know anything about contract law; they need to know what papers to file to commence a merger, but it is not that important to understand the law that governs the details of the deal. They need to know how to conduct discovery, but it is not that important to understand the rules that control how discovery operates (not to mention that governs the case itself, which dictates how discovery goes). This is a common refrain in the critique of legal education from non-lawyers, from some practicing lawyers, and even from some in the clinical-education community (where some argue that students need not have any background in the applicable substantive law to work in a clinic). But this is more than weird; it is incoherent.
Law school often is criticized for not being more like med school, although the analogy is not entirely apt and med school does not have the pedagogical market cornered. But no one criticizes med schools for teaching the biology and physiology of the heart rather than how to perform heart surgery or for teaching the biology and physiology of female reproduction and childbirth rather than how to deliver a baby. The expectation is that those skills will be taught during residency. It is true that med schools balance clinical and non-clinical education better than do law schools and med students get more formalized clinical training (although med schools can be tagged for shifting the balance too far to the former). No one suggests that med schools should entirely dispense with non clinical teaching, as Segal seems to suggest law schools should with substantive contracts. You can't diagnose and treat a patient with heart disease if you don't understand what the heart and heart disease is and how it operates. So how could anyone seriously suggest that you can (or should) be taught to put together a plea bargain if you don't understand (or know how to identify, analyze, understand, and apply) substantive criminal law?
There are good arguments for increasing clinical/externship experiences in law school. I don't think anyone questions that, although the precise balance is contested. But it is equally mistaken to go to the opposite extreme and insist that law school be entirely clinical or to deny that there is any value in case-based classroom learning.
Posted by Howard Wasserman on November 25, 2011 at 10:14 AM in Howard Wasserman, Teaching Law | Permalink
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Thanks very much. I will take a look.
Posted by: CHS | Nov 27, 2011 4:09:55 PM
But, CHS, I think you miss my point. Even the LRW profs who serve on committees, etc., often are subject to the disparate treatment I mention.
I don't mean to come across as aggressive, and if I have I certainly apologize. Honestly.
To anon @2:23, if you haven't already come across it, there's a great article on point called "Coordinating Civil Procedure and the Legal Research and Writing Course at 47 J. Legal Educ. 246 (1997).
Posted by: LS | Nov 27, 2011 3:53:55 PM
And they have fewer responsibilities, too. If they want to serve on committees, advise students, do scholarship, read colleagues' work, and any of the other things that responsible, functioning profs should be doing, then the things you mention might have to change. And I would be all for that.
Okay, you are just into Internet aggression. Different style--fine. I do not disagree with a thing you have said but your confidence in your ability to read the minds of many.
Posted by: CHS | Nov 27, 2011 3:26:46 PM
I think that when one couples the lack of coordination with the myriad other means of disparate treatment (lower pay, lower status, less research report, less job security, fewer voting rights) one would not be too off the mark to feel deemed "unworthy." (All of these claims find support, btw, in the sources I cited earlier).
If we want to water it down and call it "separate spheres thinking" in order to make everyone feel better and sound less nefarious, so be it. But, the fact remains that many (oops) law schools have deeply imbedded structural barriers to the type of collaborative pedagogy that could benefit students immensely. And, I'm not saying anything particularly novel, here, as there are dozens of law review articles that make the case far better than I can. Even relatively mainstream critiques, like the Carnegie Report (especially re: its description of CUNY's integrated curriculum) and Best Practices, suggest that it's these types of pointless dichotomies that are hindering legal education.
Posted by: LS | Nov 27, 2011 2:31:17 PM
Me again. Actually our school is in the process of rearranging our legal writing curriculum along the lines you suggest. And it is something I support. However it is a process that takes several years to accomplish and we are still at least one year away from a 1st year curriculum that integrates doctrinal courses with our legal writing courses.
Posted by: Anon | Nov 27, 2011 2:23:04 PM
I have no doubt that there is not much coordination. My only problem was with saying this lack of coordination stems from seeing legal writing instructors as "unworthy". It is more likely that a version of "separate spheres" thinking controls this. Throughout all academia are people and departments who could work together fruitfully, but do not because people stay in their own silos. That process is breaking down in a number of places and ways. There ought to be a way to set forth creative ideas without recrimination. It is rare in these discussions of law schools to find solutions offered without making someone a villain, and it is almost always law professors.
Posted by: CHS | Nov 27, 2011 1:17:37 PM
@CHS:
Because of evidence like this....
Durako, Second-Class Citizens in the Pink Ghetto: Gender Bias in Legal Writing, 50 J. Legal Educ. 562 (2000) (concluding, after analyzing study data, that legal writing faculty constitute an underclass in legal education) (http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPagecollection=journals&handle=hein.journals/jled50&div=50&id=&page=)
and this....
2011 LWI Survey, at iv (finding that of the 140 responding law schools "74% of ... legal writing faculty do not collaboratively coordinate legal writing assignments with doctrinal faculty.") http://www.lwionline.org/uploads/FileUpload/2011Survey.pdf
I don't mean to insult anyone, and I'm sorry if this information is off-putting. Let me state clearly that I don't mean to imply that anon at 12:01:04 is part of the issue I'm describing. Whether it's nefarious or due to inertia, the failure to use the resources that exist in legal writing programs (and clinics ... and ASPs ... and externships ... and bar prep) just doesn't make sense.
Posted by: LS | Nov 27, 2011 12:55:02 PM
One of the most annoying features of these discussions is that people generalize about what "many law schools" or "most law schools" do, and that could come from only a limited experience with the 200 law schools in the US. Why would you suspect something nefarious when inertia may be the more likely reason. Leaving the merits of your proposal aside, why insult the motivations of people whom you do not know?
Posted by: CHS | Nov 27, 2011 12:22:06 PM
"I teach Civ Pro. I used to have my students write a complaint, an answer and some basic discovery (interrogatories and doc requests). Students complained bitterly about how much time it was taking to write these exercises during a "substantive class." They wrote snarky things on my student evaluations about it. Nobody ever thanked me for providing them with skills they would need as young lawyers. Eventually I gave up."
This is an excellent point. However, other solutions exist. For instance, at many law schools, the legal writing program is "abstracted" outside the context of 1L doctrinal classes. While the students are learning Iqbal, Twobley, and discovery in Civ Pro, they're writing an appellate brief on child custody (which they won't study until 2L or 3L) in LRW. That seems like a disconnect to me and the loss of a wonderful opportunity for cross-pollinating skills and doctrine.
Why can't the "extra work" of combining doctrine and skills be solved by a "contextualized" LRW class? As students learn pleadings in Civ Pro, the LRW class could assign them complaints and answers -- maybe a 12(b)(6) motion or a motion to dismiss for lack of PJD? Instead, most LRW instructors are forbidden from overlapping with doctrinal classes.
I'm a doctrinal prof, and for the life of me I don't understand why we fail to leverage this opportunity. I suspect that at many law schools, it's because the LRW instructors constitute an underclass not deemed "worthy" of handling anything doctrinal -- despite the fact that many of them have a decade or so of practice experience.
Posted by: LS | Nov 27, 2011 12:01:04 PM
I would add this to those who have made a similar point above: asking students to write the sorts of documents that young lawyers are expected to be able to write in substantive courses is a good way to get lots of complaints.
I teach Civ Pro. I used to have my students write a complaint, an answer and some basic discovery (interrogatories and doc requests). Students complained bitterly about how much time it was taking to write these exercises during a "substantive class." They wrote snarky things on my student evaluations about it. Nobody ever thanked me for providing them with skills they would need as young lawyers. Eventually I gave up. Now they get to choose one of the three to do. I still get complaints occasionally, but many fewer.
Do I think it would be better if they had written all three before they graduated from law school? Yes. Can I get them to do it? Not very easily. One thing that seems to get lost in the debate is that a "skills-oriented" curriculum would be more work. Students would still have to learn the substantive law. Now they would have to spend considerable additional time on skills exercises. I am not sure that most law students would be willing to work a lot harder - even if it meant they would be more prepared for practice. (At least, my experience with my students suggests that it would be a tough sell.)
P.S. Civ Pro is not my academic interest. But I don't think that makes me unqualified to teach it.
Posted by: anon | Nov 26, 2011 12:54:38 PM
If nothing else, I learned the meaning of the word "pleonasm" from this thread. Thanks, 3dyearattorney.
Posted by: Bruce Boyden | Nov 26, 2011 10:54:03 AM
"incorporating other disciplines when the substantive law calls for it (as does antitrust) is different from obscuring an entire area of law through the inculcation of the lessons of some other discipline"
I can kind of see the distinction, but surely it is only one of degree. That is, where do you think the fact that substantive antitrust law now calls for economic analysis comes from? It certainly wasn't that way fifty years ago. The change came about because a lot of economics-oriented law professors pushed their little pet theory and convinced judges to buy it (or became the judges who bought it).
Posted by: TJ | Nov 26, 2011 3:21:06 AM
Also, I would echo TJ's comments that "practical" training is generally poorly received by students. You can ask students to go to the county or state recorder and perform a title search, but if you do so, you are far more likely to get complaints to your associate dean than you are to hear laudatory remarks.
Students say they want "practical" training, but most of the "practical" stuff is best taught in practice. What doctrinal faculty frequently fail to do is teach actual law, and for this, the criticism is valid.
Posted by: 3dyearattorney | Nov 26, 2011 2:50:10 AM
"3dyearattorney, I find your comments confusing. First, going by your moniker, you don't seem to be a law professor, so I'm not sure where your claimed expertise about entry level academic hiring comes from."
TJ, I am a full time law professor but consider myself a member of the bar first and a member of the academy second, and hence the moniker.
" this is obviously in tension with the complaint that Segal voices, which is that criminal law class is all about substantive doctrine like murder, so who are we supposed to listen to?). "
Stop fighting the Segal strawman. We all know he got some things seriously wrong. Too many of the responses to Segal have gone to pointing out meaningless facts. For example, some have shot down Segal because, in illustrating an example of obscure scholarship, he cited a philosophy journal article written by a philosopher rather than a law journal by a law professor. Yet, do you really doubt that we could not pick out an equally obscure article written by a law professor?
"Plenty of entry level professors with PhDs are perfectly competent to teach substantive doctrine, and do teach substantive doctrine."
I seriously doubt that any person who has never practiced law and has never displayed an interest in substantive law is "perfectly competent" to train future lawyers.
"To be sure, we all know of some self-indulgent professor from our law student days who spent the entire class talking about his own little pet theory of the world. But that is (a) a distinct minority, (b) has no correlation with having a PhD or not, (c) IME, more often occurs with tenured old hands, not the recently-hired PhDs that you so disparage, and (d) at least where the course is elective, is often enormously popular with students."
Fair enough. These are valid counterarguments, although I think these generalizations reach more and more entry level faculty.
"And, to close, there is another side, which is that it is impossible to talk intelligently about modern law without at least a passing understanding of those other disciplines that you seem to despise. For example, can one talk meaningfully about mergers without considering antitrust law, and can one talk meaningfully about modern antitrust law without considering economics? I sincerely doubt it. In this sense, while I would not support talking only about economics in a class about mergers, I would also condemn not talking about economics at all."
Agreed, but incorporating other disciplines when the substantive law calls for it (as does antitrust) is different from obscuring an entire area of law through the inculcation of the lessons of some other discipline.
Posted by: 3dyearattorney | Nov 26, 2011 2:45:46 AM
Howard,
I greatly enjoy your posts and comments on this blog, but in the spirit of furthering discussion, I will offer the following responses to your remarks:
"1)There is no reason to believe that just because someone has a PhD or has not practiced for long doesn't mean they aren't interested in mastering a course."
You're right that a Ph.D does not automatically disqualify one from being, say, a master of Antiturst or torts. But entry level hiring is all about predictions, and the predictions frequently are accurate. Do you really think it's reasonable to predict that someone who spent 3 years in law school but 5 years in a Ph.D program and never even could lower him or herself to practice law is terribly likely to become a true expert in an area of law? At least at my school, we put on no pretenses of such things.
"2) There is nothing wrong with staffing courses (even 1L courses) with people who don't write in that area. You can't staff a faculty that way."
Very, very, very true given the current law school focus. You can't staff faculty in 1L courses or even advanced courses with experts in a field (or persons who aspire to be experts in a field), because far too many faculty members lack expertise in a field or have no desire to master that field.
"Again, so long as a person has a commitment to mastering the area, students will get what they need."
I agree with this statement, but its limitation ("so long as a person has a commitment to mastering the area") must be observed.
"And contra Campos, most of the faculty I know take teaching very seriously."
Agreed on this point. I don't doubt that professors generally are most interested in imparting their take on the law to the students.
"3) If (as Dan suggested in an earlier post) we are really seeing a lot of nostalgia for bygone days in legal education, let's not forget that the notion of the "specialist" law professor is a relatively new phenomenon. In the past, it was expected that a smart law prof could take on any course (particularly 1L course) and master it well enough to teach it."
The whole "bygone area" criticism has become a tired pleonasm. Too often, those who suggest that law professors should know the law are dismissed as old timers. But maybe you should think before you speak. The "old times" were filled with plenty of bad things, but they got some things right.
Posted by: 3dyearattorney | Nov 26, 2011 2:37:40 AM
To add to Howard's last point and TJ's above, there is a trade-off to be made in incorporating skills exercises into existing classes. In most of the classes I teach, I am in a desperate race to cover even a small portion of what I consider important doctrine that a practicing lawyer in the field will likely want to know. I do try to incorporate some practical exercises, but those exercises come at the cost of coverage of additional doctrine.
Posted by: Bruce Boyden | Nov 26, 2011 12:23:45 AM
Daniel: Thanks for the clarification. I was speaking rhetorically, not being familiar with the current debates in medical education.
Generally: One thing overlooked in all of this is time. The trend in the last 20 years is to limit the number of required classes and credits--precisely so students can take a wider range of doctrinal classes, as well as clinics and skills classes. So my Civ Pro class is one semester, four credits. How much class time can I spend on skills exercises and still hope to give the students the basic knowledge they need?
Posted by: Howard Wasserman | Nov 25, 2011 8:52:30 PM
Although I do not disagree with the general substance of your post, as faculty in a medical school, I did want to take issue with this assertion:
"But no one criticizes med schools for teaching the biology and physiology of the heart rather than how to perform heart surgery or for teaching the biology and physiology of female reproduction and childbirth rather than how to deliver a baby."
This is in fact quite untrue, as there are a great many medical educators who believe that a very great deal of the basic science taught in medical school is quite irrelevant to the practices of many physicians. In its broad strokes, medical education has not changed much since Flexner, and trhe evidence is overwhelming that relatively large portions of the basic science curriculum is not particularly relevant to the practices of most PCPs.
That might cut in favor of your point, since it suggests the divergence Segal -- and most -- draw between law and medical schools are much narrower than many presume.
Posted by: Daniel S. Goldberg | Nov 25, 2011 8:26:53 PM
GH,
This certainly isn't commonplace for first year classes. However, if we are thinking of the same person, he has a doctorate in legal philosophy and an MSL from Yale, which involves the exact same first year curriculum as JD students, so I wouldn't be too concerned (if you are).
Posted by: anon | Nov 25, 2011 8:00:10 PM
At least one law school (Penn State) has someone with a PhD but no JD degree teaching Criminal Law to first-year students. Is it unusual to have someone without a JD but with PhD teaching first-year law courses, or is this becoming more commonplace now?
Posted by: GH | Nov 25, 2011 7:14:29 PM
As a law professor, I find the criticisms of the article a bit over the top, as perhaps the article was. The criticism of Hadley v. Baxendale is not that the principle relating to consequential damages is unimportant, but there might be better ways of teaching the material than spending time on the broken crank shaft. Or spending several weeks on consideration, an issue that is never likely to come up in practice in a meaningful way (sure it might but not in a way that justifies the three week discussion and probably no more likely than snow in May), or parsing the fine points of civil procedure. I think what this article and the recent cost criticisms are suggesting is that law schools should think hard about their programs, and make deliberate decisions about what information will prepare students properly to enter practice, not to be an experienced practitioner but to enter practice in a way that will allow them to add some value early in their careers. The legal world is changing, it seems, and law schools will need to adapt as well -- justifying Hadley v. Baxendale won't help and clearly misses the point.
Posted by: MS | Nov 25, 2011 6:38:25 PM
3dyearattorney, I find your comments confusing. First, going by your moniker, you don't seem to be a law professor, so I'm not sure where your claimed expertise about entry level academic hiring comes from.
Second, your focus on entry level hiring has very little to do with your initial complaint, which is that "substantive courses frequently fail to teach students the substantive law," with the specific over-the-top example of a criminal law class becoming all about gender equality (as an aside, this is obviously in tension with the complaint that Segal voices, which is that criminal law class is all about substantive doctrine like murder, so who are we supposed to listen to?). Plenty of entry level professors with PhDs are perfectly competent to teach substantive doctrine, and do teach substantive doctrine. To be sure, we all know of some self-indulgent professor from our law student days who spent the entire class talking about his own little pet theory of the world. But that is (a) a distinct minority, (b) has no correlation with having a PhD or not, (c) IME, more often occurs with tenured old hands, not the recently-hired PhDs that you so disparage, and (d) at least where the course is elective, is often enormously popular with students.
The broad issue of whether there is too much interdisciplinary focus in the legal academy (both on the teaching side and on the scholarship side) is a worthy debate, and is being vigorously debated. Seizing on some over-the-top examples, and ignoring the other side of the debate entirely, is unhelpful. And, to close, there is another side, which is that it is impossible to talk intelligently about modern law without at least a passing understanding of those other disciplines that you seem to despise. For example, can one talk meaningfully about mergers without considering antitrust law, and can one talk meaningfully about modern antitrust law without considering economics? I sincerely doubt it. In this sense, while I would not support talking only about economics in a class about mergers, I would also condemn not talking about economics at all.
Posted by: TJ | Nov 25, 2011 6:22:19 PM
I have been involved in entry level hiring, and my experience has not been yours. I was not responding to the question of how many young profs have had practice experience. I was responding to your blanket assertion that law schools do not teach substantive law. Saying THAT would be the "controversial characterization", not that lots of young profs are getting Ph.D's these days. Of course they are. You are conflating a lack of practice experience with an inability to teach a substantive law class. I do not agree with that.
I was taught effectively by teachers whose primary interests were in other fields, and this was before the days of JD-Ph.D's. And I had teachers who lived and breathed their scholarly interests in areas of law covered in basic courses, and they were utter disasters as teachers. Might it generally work better if professors wrote in their fields -- a good way to show scholarly interest? Sure. But there is a long way from that to the extreme statement that those who do not cannot teach the substantive law of an area in which they do not write.
Posted by: CHS | Nov 25, 2011 6:19:12 PM
3dyearattorney makes a whole bunch of assumptions that I want to take on:
1)There is no reason to believe that just because someone has a PhD or has not practiced for long doesn't mean they aren't interested in mastering a course. They may not write in that area, but there is no reason to believe they won't master it enough to teach it and teach it well.
2) There is nothing wrong with staffing courses (even 1L courses) with people who don't write in that area. You can't staff a faculty that way. Again, so long as a person has a commitment to mastering the area, students will get what they need. And contra Campos, most of the faculty I know take teaching very seriously.
3) If (as Dan suggested in an earlier post) we are really seeing a lot of nostalgia for bygone days in legal education, let's not forget that the notion of the "specialist" law professor is a relatively new phenomenon. In the past, it was expected that a smart law prof could take on any course (particularly 1L course) and master it well enough to teach it.
Posted by: Howard Wasserman | Nov 25, 2011 6:05:23 PM
Also, CHS, I would add that at many (if not most) schools, it still is possible to primarily take courses in which one learns about Article 9, the tax code, criminal statutes, and so on. But that's becoming harder to do, especially if one wants to take classes from tenured doctrinal faculty, as opposed to adjuncts and clinicians.
Posted by: 3dyearattorney | Nov 25, 2011 5:01:32 PM
CHS,
If you've been involved with entry level hiring, you would know what I mean. My own particular institution brought back 6 candidates this year for callbacks, 5 of whom had Ph.D's, and not a single one of whom had practiced 5 years or more (4 of them had not practiced ever, aside from legal clinics and judicial clerkships). It isn't too much a stretch to conclude that these individuals aren't serious about mastering a particular area of law (and if they did, it'd probably be held against them). Further still, you'll find that law schools often staff core courses (especially 1L courses) with persons who have no research or other interest in that area.
If you still doubt that young hires generally don't have substantive experience or interest in any particular area of the law, start with Solum's report and look up some profiles. You'll find plenty of corporate law "experts" whose claim to that title lies more with their econ Ph.D than with command of substantive law.
I did not even know that this characterization was controversial.
Posted by: 3dyearattorney | Nov 25, 2011 4:59:17 PM
@3dattorney--how many law schools did you attend that you can say flatly that "law schools frequently fail to teach substantive law" and what young law professors in the 200 law schools in the US prefer to do? The problem is that people take their individual experiences, or those of a few friends, and extrapolate them to all law schools.
Also, I distinctly remember leaving law school thinking I had learned nothing in criminal law only to find as I sat in the bar review course that I recognized practically everything that was reviewed.
Posted by: CHS | Nov 25, 2011 3:51:41 PM
John, I did just what you proposed with my patents class -- asking them to draft real patent claims, much akin to the "draft a contract" kind of thing that Segal proposes. The class uniformly loathed it, and so I stopped after two years. Granted, sometimes law professors shove things down students throats for their own good even when they don't like it; but at some point student preferences do count. Especially because--contrary to frequent suppositions by armchair critics to the contrary--teaching (as determined by student evaluations) actually counts quite a bit in the tenure process.
It is not that we professors reflexively dismiss the criticism, or that we somehow disdain practical skills and want to keep them out of our classes. At least not many of us are like that. It is that there are many constraints that the armchair critics never realize.
Posted by: TJ | Nov 25, 2011 2:54:53 PM
Howard,
Yours is one of the better criticisms of the Segal article (of which there are rightfully many!) insofar as you correctly identify the inability to properly (or even adequately) engage in the practical skills of contract drafting, trust creation, etc. without first knowing the substantive law of the subject matter involved.
While many complain about paying for the training of junior law associates, does the same basic thing not occur when an HMO (on in my country, Canada, the government) foots the bill for medical procedures done by junior physicians under the supervision of more senior ones? The difference lies in who is footing the bill, as both involve payment for training and the translation of theory/study into practice.
I know that I certainly would not want a doctor performing surgery on me without the doctor possessing a thorough understanding of the anatomy and physiology of the area being operated on and having had the opportunity to hone his/her skills under the supervision of more senior practitioners. Why should the situation be any different with legal advice than with the provision of medical services?
As for the "trouble" with studying Hadley v. Baxendale because it is old, how about the fact that in Fiduciary Law, the key case remains Keech v. Sandford, which was decided in 1726 and is still referred to today for distilling the essence of fiduciary obligation. Unlike bread, case law does not necessarily become stale with age. In point of fact, it sometimes improves, like fine wine.
Best,
Len
Posted by: Len Rotman | Nov 25, 2011 2:30:30 PM
Clinics and externships are a valuable part of the law school curriculum, but their merits should not be overstated.
The principal problem with externships is the conflict of interest between the placement and the student. The student's interests are clear, but especially in an era of limited resources, placements have an interest in moving as much of the undemanding but necessary work as possible to unpaid labor, while minimizing the resources allocated to supervision. Law school's incentives are also suspect since externships allow them to keep tuition money while externalizing supervision costs. Moreover, it is far from clear that the ABA enforces the standards requiring meaningful supervision of externs by full-time faculty in any serious way. Given the incentive structure, externs frequently wind up doing work of little pedagogical value. Judicial externs, for example, all to often wind up writing opinions in the cases brought by mentally ill pro se litigants. This kind of undemanding work rarely prepares students for the rigors of practice, and it is unlikely to impress prospective employers. Yet, it is accompanied by opportunity costs, and it may even deter potential employers who may regard an externship in a prosecutor's office, for example, as signaling a lack of real interest in a career in commercial litigation. In other cases, externships can be invaluable when they function as what I call the "three month job interview." If, however, the student comes to the externship with a paucity of practice-oriented skills, the student is unlikely to be able to impress anyone with influence over hiring decisions.
Clinics involve direct supervision of students by highly capable faculty, and in that sense have fewer quality-control problems. Nevertheless, given the paucity of skills that students generally bring to clinical courses, they can be trusted to handle only very basic matters that are unlikely to offer all that much preparation for the level of sophistication required in many if not most practice areas -- especially those where the pay is high. Some clinics get involved in sophisticated litigation, but students cannot be trusted to play very meaningful roles in such cases, and in any event not a whole lot actually happens over the course of a semester in most types of sophisticated litigation.
One will encounter many anecdotes about the value of clinics and externships -- although in my experience students usually overestimate the value that employers are likely to give to these experiences. For my part, I will take statistical over anecdotal evidence. The only study of which I am aware on this issue was a NALP survey of recent graduates. Of those who had the experience in law school, 62% found clinical experience valuable in the practice of law, and 58% found externships valuable. In contrast, 67% found legal employment during the school year valuable and 78% found legal employment in the summer valuable. It seems that the private sector is doing a better job preparing students for practice than are clinics or externships.
The Carnegie report contains an exhaustive analysis of these issues. It recommends incorporating more experiential learning into the traditional curriculum. I am completely persuaded (perhaps not coincidentially, I spent an unusually long time in practice before moving to the academy). I teach doctrinal courses, but I integrate experiential learning -- such as the problem method favored in business school and legal writing assignments -- so that students acquire some practice-oriented skills before they begin their externships, clinics, or part-time and summer jobs. Sending the unarmed into combat is no answer to the problems facing legal education.
Larry Rosenthal
Chapman University School of Law
Posted by: Larry Rosenthal | Nov 25, 2011 1:57:52 PM
"His assumption that future lawyers only need to learn practical skills and technical details and that they do not need to learn substantive law or how to identify, analyze, and work with substantive law. They need to know how to draft a contract, but they don't have to know anything about contract law; they need to know what papers to file to commence a merger, but it is not that important to understand the law that governs the details of the deal."
Segal's piece may have missed the point a bit, but so does your response. The problem in law schools is that so-called substantive courses frequently fail to teach students the substantive law. The merger class becomes a vehicle to explore law and economics to the exclusion of statutes and regulations, criminal law becomes all about gender inequality, and so on. As the associate dean at my old law school put it, "If you take Torts with Professor [X], you won't know what a tort is until you study for the bar exam."
So, no one can deny that substantive law is critical. But young law faculty frequently fail to be experts in any particular area of substantive law, with their interests relating primarily to economics, philosophy, statistics, and so on.
Posted by: 3dyearattorney | Nov 25, 2011 1:29:01 PM
One thing which doesn't help this discussion is the extent to which law professors dismiss most criticism of their current pedagogical model, even when that criticism is constructive. Another is the extent to which law professors want to break out any practical training into clinics or externships and keep it there, so that none of that dirty skill-building washes up on the pristine shores of their seminar courses. (Understand that I am not accusing you personally of this.)
For example, everybody learns about title in Property, and some effort is taken to show how failures to record one's interest in a piece of property causes problems for the one who failed to record, and possibly those who come after. Instead of reading a case or two about this situation when it involves real property, a professor could instruct 1Ls to go down to the county or parish land records room and search title on a piece or pieces of real estate. Perhaps the professor could have done a little homework and found some pieces with title issues, for the students to pick out and discuss in the context of a hypothetical client (e.g., "Do I still have mineral rights beneath my yard?") Granted, a lot of people use specialist companies to do title searches, especially when purchasing a home, but there are still other situations where it's good for a lawyer to know how it's done (e.g., probate). The concept would be reinforced by a practical lesson in using that concept, without the need to provide paid supervision by someone who can appear as counsel.
For another, think about our casebooks. You see the heavily redacted case that offers you the facts and the holdings that illustrate the point that the casebook is making in this chapter, but you never see excerpts of the pleadings or oral arguments that got you there. Why exactly is that? Wouldn't it be nice to see how somebody doing the job you came to law school for is arguing one point or another?
I apologize for going on so long, but my point remains that there's a lot that needs fixing in the pedagogical model, even if it continues to be dominated by casebook learning.
Posted by: John | Nov 25, 2011 1:25:33 PM
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