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Sunday, November 13, 2011
Perfect Makes Practice?
I wanted to revisit a comment that I posted on a really thoughtful post by Robin Effron about students' lack of professionalism and when the duty to seize a so-called teachable moment kicks in. I wrote that
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Posted by Kerri Stone on November 13, 2011 at 11:51 PM in Workplace Law | Permalink
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Comments
Whoops. My apologies, Miriam! (Or, Kerri, you can just delete my mistaken post.)
Posted by: John Steele | Nov 15, 2011 10:13:47 AM
I think she meant the very first poster who commented. He is John also. Your comments were really helpful and valuable. I plan to share with my students what you said about professionalism and the "entitlement attitude" as a prime cause for professional failure. Your thoughts reinforce the importance of our mission to make our students employable in all respects and prepared to face the challenges and expectations of the legal market.
I happen to agree with Miriam that our students are most certainly not clients. The school's job (and by extension, the professors') is twofold. We educate, prepare, recommend, root for, etc. our students. But we must simultaneously evaluate them to ensure that they are worthy of the degree we confer and suitable in all relevant respects for bar membership.
Posted by: Kerri Stone | Nov 15, 2011 9:24:47 AM
It's never been my position, in my comments here or anywhere else, that "students are clients" and that it's OK to "give students legal advice."
Posted by: John Steele | Nov 15, 2011 9:10:03 AM
Great post, Kerri.
I don't agree with John's statement that students are clients. In fact, while I am happy to help students with class material, I am hesitant to give students legal advice. I suppose John could mean it as an analogy, but it's still inapt because a professor is obligated to grade students and an attorney does not grade his or her clients.
Posted by: Miriam A. Cherry | Nov 14, 2011 8:20:23 PM
It’s an important post on an important topic. I was a hiring partner and ran the associate evaluation process at an AmLaw 200 and when I teach professional responsibility I can’t help but think about whether a particular student is ready for private practice.
Some quick thoughts . . . . (1) The best way to teach those attitudes is to set an example. That includes teaching a course that students will see as important to their professional future. (Imho, far too many students in far too many courses believe, correctly or incorrectly, that law school is about what the professor finds important to her career rather than what’s important to the students’ career.) It might also include asking students what topics and skills they want out of the course and then making room for them during the semester. That sends the signal that lawyering is service-oriented and that lawyers, including professors, always need to be “adding value.” (2) Be clear that attendance and participation count in the grade and stress that it’s participation that demonstrates pre-class preparation that gets the grade bump. “Quality, not quantity.” (3) If the course lends itself to it, have the students work in teams, present in class, get professionally critiqued in class by the professor and by the other students, and have team members evaluate each other. We did that with 1Ls in Indiana, resulting in lots of student engagement and in frank evals for the occasional student who dogs it. (4) If there’s been a lack of professionalism, then add an occasional comment at the end of class about the way that “sweating details” is what lawyers do best.
Fwiw, at my firm we estimated that for each summer associate who got no-offered because of work quality, there were three who got no-offered because of EQ issues like working on teams, meeting deadlines, communication, and having an entitlement attitude. We also concluded that the partnership was full of former associates who spent their first couple of years being professional and doing “B+, B+, B+” work; whereas lots of former associates who did “A+, B-, A+” and lacked teamwork never made partner.
Finally, there's always LSSSE to track student engagement and to help faculty set internal goals for improvement.
Posted by: John Steele | Nov 14, 2011 1:27:09 PM
Brad--I think your question is execellent. My understanding is that while all disabilities must be reasonably accommodated (like for example, allowing an alcoholic attend an AA meeting through a flexible work schedule, if it's feasible), damaging disability-caused misbehavior need not be tolerated. You raise some really good and interesting points. I am familiar with a case in which a business was told that it needed to assign an "easier" client to a salesman with bipolar disorder to help him meet his quota. With the ADA, everything is taken in context and all queries are fact-driven and individualized, so I think what a court would mandate in a given situation can be somewhat difficut to predict. As a matter of practice, (barring compulsion by a court), I am not sure what firms do voluntarily.
Posted by: Kerri Stone | Nov 14, 2011 12:44:50 PM
I wonder if I could raise a related, but somewhat touchy issue.
All level of the schools, under federal mandate, have put into place more or less effective procedures for accommodating students with learning and/or emotional disabilities.
I know that under the ADA workplaces are likewise required to make reasonable accommodations. But what happens in the real world when a junior associate blurts out something inappropriate at a client meeting? When an associate needs extra time to complete an assignment, does the client get billed? Are note-takers provided for junior associates at meetings with their partners?
Posted by: brad | Nov 14, 2011 12:24:22 PM
I wholly agree, and I am somewhat proud to say that those of us here who have been engaged in this task neither think of ourselves as nor act like partners like the ones you describe (and with whom we are all familiar.) In fact, some of the most patient, clear, responsive, accessible teachers are the ones who care the most about creating a culture of preparedness and professionalism. It is incumbent upon us to work with all of our students so that their substantive knowledge, skill sets, and attitude, approach, and habits are superior by the time that they graduate.
Posted by: Kerri Stone | Nov 14, 2011 7:35:10 AM
Here's a better starting point for professors who want to give their students a "competitive edge": making sure the students' time in class is more productive for all of them (not just the stars) than an equivalent period spent reading a commercial supplement.
I expect partners to believe that their time is so precious that it can't be wasted speaking to a mere associate doing some task new to him, or reviewing an area of law with which he is unfamiliar. (Thank God most of mine aren't like this, although I've met enough who are.) However, professors shouldn't think of themselves as partners in the classroom because their clients are sitting in the seats in front of them.
Posted by: John | Nov 14, 2011 7:28:06 AM
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