Wednesday, October 28, 2009
Law School Hiring Thread, 2009-10, Thread Two
This thread will be moved to the front every ten days or so.Please add comments to this thread, not Thread One (where comments are now closed).
This thread is for both law professors and people who are on the market this coming year for becoming a law professor. We invite those on the market and those who are prawfs to leave comments (anonymously if they prefer) regarding a range of things:
a) whether they have received a call from a particular school inviting them to an interview at the AALS meat market, and/or whether they accepted it; also whether the school has asked for a candidate's scholarship yet
b) whether they have received a callback from a law school and/or accepted it
c) whether they have received an offer from a law school and/or accepted it; feel free to also leave details about the offer or info about teaching loads, research leaves, etc.
Law professors may also choose to provide information that is relevant to the entry-level or the lateral market.
Bear in mind: if you don't want your contact information displayed, please just enter in email@example.com or something like that as an email address.
This post will be moved to the front of the blog once every ten days or so, and we will also try to provide updates in the comments that consolidate the various bits of information here.
The aggregation will now take place slightly differently. All information should still come in through the comments. However, a very kind market participant has agreed to aggregate this information, and this aggregation will appear a spreadsheet that is embedded in this post (and will be embedded in future hiring posts). Only the participant will be able to edit the spreadsheet, but when the participant edits the spreadsheet, those changes will be reflected in the embedded version below.
Please note: the aggregator will try to update this spreadsheet once a day, but the aggregator may or may not (to preserve anonymity) have a job, and perhaps may even be on the market; thus there may be some delay in information's traveling between the comments and the spreadsheet.
Additionally, this is a new system, so please bear with any technical problems we may have.The first thread, where comments are now closed, is here.
Update: Comments are now closed on this thread. Please add comments to Thread Three.
Posted by Administrators on October 28, 2009 at 10:54 PM | Permalink
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The chair of the Ohio State hiring committee is Joseph P. ("Josh") Stulberg. We plan to hire one or two faculty this year at the entry-level or fairly junior lateral levels. We are potentially interested in all fields, but have particular needs for and interests in contracts, commercial law, business law, tax, intellectual property, and civil clinic. Scholars and teachers in contracts and commercial law are of especial interest.
Posted by: Larry Garvin | Sep 11, 2009 6:14:28 PM
Can you post, as Sheet 2, a sort by Column B?
Posted by: anon | Sep 11, 2009 6:25:40 PM
Utah, Villanova, St. Mary's (San Antonio), and Northern Kentucky have also made calls/emailed for interviews. I'm an IP person, not a best athlete by any means but top 10 school plus VAP.
Posted by: IPerson | Sep 11, 2009 6:32:50 PM
anon @ Sep 11, 2009 6:25:40pm --
I'm slightly worried that posting multiple versions of the sheet will start to get unwieldy -- as more information is added, there are going to be lots of requests for different sorts, and that starts to become a full-time endeavor for the aggregator. If there's a hue and cry, I'm happy to revisit ... but in the meantime, there's a "Save as Excel" link just above the spreadsheet window, that will let anyone download and sort as they wish. Does that work as a compromise?
Posted by: thebiglist | Sep 11, 2009 6:34:06 PM
Please add Drexel University's Law School to the mix. I so far have a total of 12 interviews, and the schools that articulated a specific curricular need focused on my interest in property. Although they found some of my other interests tangentially interesting. A significant number of schools (particularly the tier 1 and 2 schools) said they weren't particularly looking to fill a need.
I would also be interested in conversing with anyone who wanted to communicate via electronic mail about this process, because a lot of this stuff is driving me crazy. Lots of anticipation and anxiety. My email is firstname.lastname@example.org
Posted by: Lara Croft | Sep 11, 2009 6:39:54 PM
One more note - the aggregate spreadsheet now has a few more schools listed, with a "none yet" entry for when they were first mentioned in the thread. These schools were added so that there's a place (column D of the spreadsheet) for the curricular interests that they have specifically announced as priorities in this thread.
Please keep in mind that many of the schools that listed particular curricular interests also specifically said that those interests were not exclusive, and that they were considering candidates from other fields as well.
Posted by: thebiglist | Sep 11, 2009 7:14:47 PM
Just to give fellow candidates another forum for internet anxiety and procrastination, I noticed a recent uptick in my SSRN downloads and abstract views, from which I would prefer to extrapolate that hiring committees are buzzing with interest about my work. Wouldn't we all love to think that? Good luck everyone.
Posted by: anon | Sep 11, 2009 7:27:15 PM
Drake is focusing on property / natural resources for the one slot they have open this year.
Posted by: Anon | Sep 11, 2009 7:43:35 PM
To any hiring committee members out there:
It would be very kind of you if you could post a note to this thread when your school has filled all its interview slots at the FRC.
Posted by: David Frakt | Sep 11, 2009 7:45:06 PM
Wonder if anyone knows how many, if any, of these calls are for clinical professor openings. I don't remember seeing any comments (on thread one) saying so.
Posted by: anonclinician | Sep 11, 2009 7:47:34 PM
My SSRN views are up too! It is nice to think they are looking, but since they are not calling, not so nice!
Posted by: sisterfromanotherplanet | Sep 11, 2009 7:52:43 PM
Another technical note: you can also sort however you want without downloading: click "full screen view," highlight the column you would like to sort by, and then right-click on that column--one of the options will be "sort."
Posted by: Sarah L. | Sep 11, 2009 8:00:48 PM
I second David Frakt's request for some reliable information from hiring committees. Some data on how many of your available slots have been filled would go a long way to helping us applicants get a sense of where we might sit in the process. Thanks in advance.
Posted by: anon | Sep 11, 2009 8:02:59 PM
Women: pantsuits or knee-length skirts for AALS interviews?
Posted by: anon | Sep 11, 2009 8:10:01 PM
Cleveland State and Cleveland Marshall are one and the same (so perhaps those lines on the spreadsheet should be combined)
Posted by: anon | Sep 11, 2009 8:14:59 PM
Posted by: anon | Sep 11, 2009 8:10:01 PM
How about what you are most comfortable wearing, including as you run up and down stairs.
Posted by: sisterfromanotherplanet | Sep 11, 2009 8:24:28 PM
Oh, and which ever best covers your tats (skirt or pants)!
Posted by: sisterfromanotherplanet | Sep 11, 2009 8:25:45 PM
The spreadsheet says Texas was mentioned in the thread today at 3:03pm -- I don't see Texas mentioned (nor indeed any 3:03 pm post). Has Texas called? If this is an error in the spreadsheet, by pointing it out I of course do not mean to criticize the spreadsheet -- thanks very much to Mr. (or Ms.) Big for doing that.
Posted by: anon | Sep 11, 2009 8:27:42 PM
Pants or skirts for women:
(1) whichever will be most comfortable, including as you run up and down the stairs at AALS
(2) whichever will look best with the comfortable shoes you should wear (see #1)
(2) whichever best covers your tats
Posted by: sisterfromanotherplanet | Sep 11, 2009 8:29:42 PM
THANK YOU to Dan and the anonymous compilinator. Huge service to this community.
Somebody asked on the other thread, which Colorado? Boulder. And someone asked for areas. At least some of those being called are not in Colorado's expressed areas of interest ("environmental and business").
Posted by: anonaronaroonironibonitheponyzimboni | Sep 11, 2009 8:47:28 PM
Add UConn, Northeastern, and Boston College to the list for pre-AALS interviews at other campuses. Some of these schools seem to be more serious than others. BU has scheduled at least two early callbacks (i.e. jobtalks), which will be occurring in the next fifteen days. (They used similar tactics last year, along with exploding offers, with some success.)
Posted by: anonsequitur | Sep 11, 2009 8:50:11 PM
sisterfromanotherplanet, I'm glad to see another candidate worried more about covering her tats than about skirt vs. pants. For the record, I'm covering the tats but leaving all my piercings in.
Posted by: not sweating it | Sep 11, 2009 9:03:54 PM
To not sweating it:
Posted by: sisterfromanotherplanet | Sep 11, 2009 9:09:02 PM
anon @ Sep 11, 2009 8:27:42 PM:
Good eyes. I've also added a few calls for interviews that I've heard about from the person called, even if they haven't posted to the list. (Only about 3 schools fit that category thus far, and were confirmed by other posters shortly thereafter.) Texas is an example. But in order to avoid confusion, I'll start posting those schools separately in the comments as well, so that people can see them even if they're not following the sheet.
Posted by: thebiglist | Sep 11, 2009 9:09:30 PM
If you are in the second year of a VAP and are on the market, do schools request your teaching evaluations from your first year of teaching?
Posted by: Dexter | Sep 11, 2009 9:21:05 PM
Dexter: I have heard that some do, some don't. My impression is that more do. Schools also ask about teaching and evals in interviews, including at AALS.
Posted by: sisterfromanotherplanet | Sep 11, 2009 9:37:54 PM
sisterfromanotherplanet -- how many interviews do you have thus far?
Posted by: brotherfromanotherplanet | Sep 11, 2009 9:45:56 PM
Hmm, why do you ask, brother? Another question could be, why am I on here so much? That has got to change. Must. Write. Scholarship.
Posted by: sisterfromanotherplanet | Sep 11, 2009 9:51:25 PM
I am happy that some people have mentioned issues dealing with the body (i.e. tattoos). I have been wondering about hair and hairstyles...particularly acceptable ethnic hairstyles for women AND men of color with long hair. Seems like more of an issue for men.
Posted by: Lara Croft | Sep 11, 2009 9:55:27 PM
oh i was just curious based on your screen name how you were faring. no biggie.
Posted by: brotherfromanotherplanet | Sep 11, 2009 9:57:16 PM
brother from another planet: if you are wondering based on the screen name if I am African American, I am not. I am a white girl film buff feeling like an alien--with no interviews. : )
Posted by: sisterfromanotherplanet | Sep 11, 2009 10:03:03 PM
My advice for the conference: dress as if you were interviewing for a job at a stuffy law firm. There will be plenty of time to express your individuality once you have been hired. Tattoos, piercings, or inappropriately revealing attire will undoubtedly turn off some members of the hiring committee.
Posted by: David Frakt | Sep 12, 2009 2:00:42 AM
There's only one "Colorado," the University of Colorado, in Boulder. The only other law school in the state is the University of Denver, a private school not part of the state system.
Posted by: Coloradoan | Sep 12, 2009 2:29:34 AM
One tip shared with me by a former hiring committee person: don't make the blunder of automatically referring to female committee members by their first name while calling the men "Professor (or Dean) So-and-so." Unfortunately this is all too common, men and women both do it--so pick one form of address and stick to it for any gender, in person or over email. (I'd say it's a toss up whether, as a candidate, you prefer to express deference by using someone's formal title or establish yourself as a peer by going for the first name. A school's initial communications will likely give you some clues as to their own level of formality, e.g. if they write to you as "Mr./Ms. Candidate.")
Posted by: anon | Sep 12, 2009 3:02:43 AM
If my experience from last year is any indication, most schools will ultimately want to see your teaching evaluations at some point in the process. My recollection is that only 3 or 4 schools asked for them before AALS, but almost all of the schools that invited me for job talks asked for them either before or shortly after my campus visits.
Posted by: S. Todd Brown | Sep 12, 2009 8:47:14 AM
If they request evals, do they want to see the actual student sheets, or just the overall eval summary sheet? Do they want them all (for a first year course with 90 students), or just a "representative sample"?
Posted by: somebutnotenough | Sep 12, 2009 10:40:46 AM
somebutnotenough: I suggest that you ask the school what they would prefer. Also, I have heard that it is recommended to include a cover letter discussing the results. That allows you to frame the positive aspects of the reviews, and the negative as well (for example, by describing what you have done to respond to criticism.)
Posted by: ohwellok | Sep 12, 2009 11:40:35 AM
I have read other places that international/con law is really competitive and there aren't enough people in business law, etc. Any feeling on the play that people in other specialties like property, tax, and crim are getting?
Posted by: anon | Sep 12, 2009 5:08:42 PM
im a crim/torts guy with very little play -- 3 interviews.
Posted by: brotherfromanotherplanet | Sep 12, 2009 5:17:06 PM
property and trusts and estates -- 14 interviews. Got six calls on Tuesday and silence since then.
Posted by: anon | Sep 12, 2009 5:31:32 PM
I am a FL and property guy with zero play.
Posted by: maybenotthisyear | Sep 12, 2009 5:47:38 PM
Recognizing that the aggregator is doing all of us a big favor, I was nevertheless wondering if he or she would consider some kind of way of signaling the changes in new versions. For example, using a colored font for new ingormation (which would also require getting rid of the colored font from the prior update each time he/she posted a new update).
Posted by: lazy | Sep 12, 2009 7:10:09 PM
Lazy--you can sort the chart, so one solution would be to just expand to the full screen view and sort by the date information was first added (i.e., column B). The new information will show up at the bottom (above the "none yet"s).
Posted by: Sarah L. | Sep 12, 2009 7:36:18 PM
I finally got an interview! Yippee! (Drexel)
Posted by: anon | Sep 12, 2009 9:17:08 PM
I received an offer to meet with a law school's appointments committee before the AALS conference; the school in question mailed to me a packet of information on the school. It seems my interview will be only 30 minutes, and is not a full job talk.
My question is what I should take from this -- is the school simply attempting to schedule interviews both before and during the conference for efficiency's sake/administrative reasons? Am I to think they are particularly interested in me because of the early nature of the meeting? How likely or unlikely is it that an offer may be presented based on the interview alone? This is a school I'm very interested in and I've tried to make it clear that I'm pretty enthused about the prospect of working there.
Thanks, and best of luck to everyone.
Posted by: anonanontillthebreakofdawn | Sep 12, 2009 10:03:41 PM
Depending on the school, it could go either way. Some schools hire early, but they would still bring you back for a full day of interviews. If they are truly enthused about you, it will be made clear during the 30 minute meeting of minds.
Posted by: anon | Sep 12, 2009 11:01:20 PM
anon | Sep 12, 2009 9:17:08 PM w/ interview at Drexel: Congrats! Can you tell us what the interview is for--e.g., was it in the catagory already listed by another interviewee (property), or in one of the other catagories Drexel indicates they are looking for (family, civ pro, federal) or something else?
Posted by: maybenotthisyear | Sep 12, 2009 11:01:45 PM
I think the significance of the interview may depend on the school and what else is going on. Just take your chance and run with it. But I have heard that you should NOT be super eager about the position. It makes you seem less desirable to the school. Not that you should seem snobby or disinterested--not at all. But you should not be an eager beaver. The best thing is to have other options that look good too.
What do other's think about expressing high levels of interest in a particular school?
Posted by: tinydancer | Sep 12, 2009 11:08:38 PM
Re expressing interest, I have received one interview where the only option presented was interviewing on-campus prior to the AALS (again, just a 30 or 45 minute interview, not a full job talk), but other offers where I was given a choice between going to campus early or waiting for the AALS. In the latter cases, I chose to wait until the AALS -- not to play hard to get, but mostly to give myself more time to prepare and work on some writing. But does putting a school off until the AALS send a signal to them that you're not very interested in them? Is it bad form?
Posted by: anon | Sep 12, 2009 11:18:40 PM
When a school invites you for a pre-AALS interview, who pays travel expenses? Or are such interviews usually only with schools local to you?
Posted by: Dexter | Sep 12, 2009 11:57:09 PM
Got a 4th interview today (crim/crim pro) with U of Denver. Very psyched. Great school. Great location. I don't see why anyone should hide their enthusiasm for a particular school. People tend to overthink these things.
By the way, to the person who has three interviews at this stage and thinks that is "very little play" - don't get psyched out by the small number of people with lots of interviews. For each person with double digit interviews, there are at least two with none at all. So be happy with what you have at this stage. If you have 3 at this stage, you could very easily end up with 6-10 interviews, a very respectable number. I'm very pleased to have 4 at this point.
If I were given a chance to do an interview prior to AALS, I think I would take it if it were at all possible. Chances are you will be the only one interviewing that day. At the conference, you will be one of 16 that they interview. At the conference, if they want to keep talking to you, they can't. If you go to the school, they can let the interview run as long as they want. If they are inviting you prior to AALS, that would suggest that they are particularly interested in you.
Posted by: David Frakt | Sep 13, 2009 1:59:58 AM
Regarding the anontillthebreakofdawn questions about pre-AALS on-campus screening interviews:
My impression is that schools do this simply to create more total interview slots, beyond the 32 available at AALS. So, if they give you the option of whether to go to AALS or go to campus, then that is no signal at all, beyond the huge positive signal of getting an interview offer at all. If they say that they will only talk to you on campus but not at AALS, that may be a weakly negative signal. It may mean that they are saving their coveted AALS for other "national" candidates.
I disagree with David Frakt's comment that "chances are you will be the only one interviewing that day." For the New York area schools I have talked to, they gave me choice of half-hour slots that made it appear that there were other interviews before and after mine. Another school, far from the coasts, which I am visiting while in town anyway, wanted to do lunch before the interview with the chair. That's the exception to the rule.
I disagree with someone else's comment that the schools that really like you will let you know at the on-campus interview and that it could lead to something more quickly. My impression is that schools tend to view these very similarly to AALS interviews. Only a few schools (such as BU) will make any serious effort to move more quickly. This is especially difficult for faculties and hiring committees that are more politicized. It will be difficult for one candidate to proceed before the others have at least been seen.
Posted by: anonsequitur | Sep 13, 2009 7:32:51 AM
When I was offered a pre-AALS interview, the caller said they were doing two days of pre-AALS on campus interviewing plus AALS to inrease their number of slots. He offered that doing the pre-AALS would allow for a slightly longer interview and that it might also be possible for them to set up a meeting with the major player in my field (who isn't on the committee). I took a pre-AALS spot for this reason. It's reasonably local for me so I didn't ask about covering expenses.
I have geographic constraints for family reasons, so I am expressing eager beaver interest in a few schools in my area and explaining that I'm on the market this year with the constraints and if that doesn't work out, I'll be able to go on next year without them. Sort of an "act now! limited time offer!" approach.
Posted by: anon | Sep 13, 2009 7:33:44 AM
I'm wondering how many people are on the market for the first time, and how many have done this before. For those of us who don't have any interviews yet and are wondering what we should do to improve our portfolios for next time, any words of advice?
Posted by: Morgan | Sep 13, 2009 2:01:42 PM
Are people receiving interview requests on the weekend?
Posted by: anon | Sep 13, 2009 4:27:39 PM
To job seekers - my sense is that probably, at this stage, many schools have pretty much filled up their schedules. The key phrase is "pretty much." Our schedule is mostly full but not yet full. There are still a few open slots and we aren't finished yet. We have a few more calls to make and may wait to fill those last two or three slots for the last distribution before the conference. I suspect that is probably true for many schools at this point. The important point however is that whatever school you are hoping to hear from, don't give up hope yet. It is not over. This may be particularly true for the top 20 schools or so who can feel confident that most candidates will want to interview with them. And between now and November things can still change in whatever line-up a school has, even if it is currently set or mostly set. Some interviewees cancel leaving openings, even very late in the game. In terms of clothing I would second the comment about dressing as if for a law firm job interview except that I would not interpret that to mean that women have to wear skirts. That is my take on it. I am inclined to think that you should be yourself, albeit probably your most conventional version of yourself. I admire individuality but if I am to give good advice I have to acknowledge that not every interviewer will feel the way I do. So safer is probably better. In terms of expression of interest in the school, we view that as a plus. That is probably not true everywhere, particularly if it is viewed as "too much" (whatever that means). Again, you can drive yourself crazy trying too hard to fit yourself into others' mold. Try to be yourself. And if you are enthusiastic, say so sincerely but without fawning. Try to remember that schools will be wanting to sell themselves to you as well. So even if you only have a couple of interviews you might remind yourself (not them!) that you are also interviewing them. It can sometimes help you stop yourself from going overboard or worrying too much. If you don't have tons of interviews, look at some of the gaps as welcome opportunities for a chance to catch your breath between interviews and read up on the committee members for your next one. And if you have a lot of interviews, congratulations, try to pace yourself. In any event, I look forward to meeting some of you in D.C. And best of luck to everyone!
Posted by: anonymous committee member | Sep 13, 2009 5:48:51 PM
Thanks very much for your input anon committee member. I hope you are overstating how many schools have mostly filled slots, however. I know of at least one committee that has not yet met but will be attending AALS. Also, more schools may enter the ring when they are clearer on their needs or funding. Although there may be underreporting, it is also worth keeping in mind that not all schools are represented on our chart--even among those advertising for positions.
Posted by: anon | Sep 13, 2009 6:15:37 PM
In addition to the areas previously listed, Elon is also interested in: legal writing, transactional skills, trial advocacy, insurance law, advanced torts, antitrust and economic regulation.
(Thanks to the keeper of the spreadsheet in advance for adding these.)
Posted by: Howard Katz | Sep 13, 2009 7:01:29 PM
I find it hard to believe that "most schools" have filled up all 32 of their AALS interview slots at this point - especially since so many schools haven't even started making calls yet. I have submitted my CV directly to many schools in the past week, and have been told by at least a half-dozen schools that they are just at the beginning of the process.
Posted by: anon | Sep 13, 2009 8:46:23 PM
He said "many." It seems like 40% of schools have started calling already. I'd say that only a third or so of the interview slots have already been filled and a portion of those will open up when cancellations occur.
Posted by: anon holla back boy | Sep 13, 2009 9:25:35 PM
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